Central Line Bong Sau vs. Center Line Bong Sau

[KPM]

Good clip from Phil Redmond:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRgn...ature=youtu.be

[wckf92]

a much different approach to bong!

[LFJ]

I just don't like how TWC stays out at the end of the opponent's punches and tries to block everything where it's most powerful.

If the opponent throws that second punch, which they will, you have to suddenly abandon your plan of entering, and change your footwork to stay out, circling away, keeping distance, and blocking again.

It doesn't matter that you're throwing a punch with the wu, because you're stepping backward taking power away from your point of force.

[KPM]

I just don't like how TWC stays out at the end of the opponent's punches and tries to block everything where it's most powerful.

If the opponent throws that second punch, which they will, you have to suddenly abandon your plan of entering, and change your footwork to stay out, circling away, keeping distance, and blocking again.

It doesn't matter that you're throwing a punch with the wu, because you're stepping backward taking power away from your point of force.

Well, Phil clearly states in that video that he is using forward pressure. He is stepping in. He is only engaging from further out first because that is where he happens to be when the punch comes. He clearly says in the video that you have to be prepared for that second punch, which is why you Lop forward and not downward and why you keep the Wu ready to defend. And he isn't stepping backward, he is angling to the side. In the video, when the second punch comes, he doesn't move away.

But as an overall strategy I see what you are saying. TWC will often place more emphasis on flanking the opponent to get to their "blind side" over driving right into their center. The idea is that if you only have to effectively deal with one arm at a time, you are in a safer and superior position. In contrast, driving into the center seeks to disrupt the opponent's balance to making it harder for them to land a good strike, even if both arms are still in play. Just different approaches.

[LFJ]

Well, Phil clearly states in that video that he is using forward pressure. He is stepping in.

I usually watch what they do, more than listen to what they say, because it often doesn't match up.

The only time he steps in is when the partner pulls his punch back without throwing a second and he is caused to fully extend his reach during an attempt to contact and trap that retracting arm. Bit of an arm-chase, I'd say. Dangerous to chase like that when you know a second punch is likely coming.

he isn't stepping backward, he is angling to the side. In the video, when the second punch comes, he doesn't move away.

Watch the feet when he circles out. They are moving away.

The lead foot circles off to the side. The rear foot follows the heel stepping backward, with reference to his own body.

This is moving away from the incoming right round punch, and backward along the perimeter of the circle.

The result is he's affording the opponent ample space to adjust and continue attacking, while he moves away and has to put up some sort of block, while also taking body mass in the opposite direction of where he's intending to put force in his own punch.

I always see this exact same footwork in any TWC video. If you watch the feet they are always stepping out and backward, where their heels point, while circling around. Lead foot out, rear foot back. Lead foot out, rear foot back. Round and round. Never forward into the opponent, leaving a big gap.

TWC will often place more emphasis on flanking the opponent to get to their "blind side" over driving right into their center. The idea is that if you only have to effectively deal with one arm at a time, you are in a safer and superior position. In contrast, driving into the center seeks to disrupt the opponent's balance to making it harder for them to land a good strike, even if both arms are still in play.

The idea is not a bad one. The thing is though, if you allow so much space, you're not really in a much safer or superior position. The opponent is still easily able to adjust and continue throwing power shots at that distance. As you continue to block and circle away, it's just a matter of time. If you don't affect their balance or facing, just slapping at that one arm isn't going to keep you safe.

Now, getting to the "blind side" and driving right up the center aren't the only options. It is possible to shut down the one arm and disrupt balance and facing, effectively getting to the same "blind side" to avoid retaliation from the other arm while driving body mass into the center. It just takes a different angling footwork and skill set.

[KPM]

The only time he steps in is when the partner pulls his punch back without throwing a second and he is caused to fully extend his reach during an attempt to contact and trap that retracting arm. Bit of an arm-chase, I'd say. Dangerous to chase like that when you know a second punch is likely coming.

---I'd say it is chasing center. He defends from the outer range as he steps off the line and then when the opponent naturally retracts his arm Phil steps and follows it in to attack into the center. He's just covering the arm on the way in.



Watch the feet when he circles out. They are moving away.

---No. His lead foot stays planted as his rear foot moves up to it in a "T step". This moves his body off the attacking line and his body appears to shift back a bit. But his lead foot stays planted. Then the lead foot steps forward and towards the opponent.


The lead foot circles off to the side. The rear foot follows the heel stepping backward, with reference to his own body.

---The lead foot may step off to the side during the "T step" for better angling. But it is not moving back away from the opponent and giving up distance.


This is moving away from the incoming right round punch, and backward along the perimeter of the circle.

---You do realize, that since the perimeter is circular and in front of the opponent, one side of your body can move back as the other side moves forward?


The result is he's affording the opponent ample space to adjust and continue attacking,


---Possibly. But the whole point in flanking like this is to reach a position where it is easy for you to continue to attack but hard for the opponent to continue to attack. Just look at the awkward position his opponent would have to attack from. And one advantage to leaving this space, is that it allows space to kick, or to further adjust the angle with footwork if needed, etc.


while he moves away and has to put up some sort of block, while also taking body mass in the opposite direction of where he's intending to put force in his own punch.

---You pointed out yourself that the perimeter and therefore the way he is moving is circular. So if his body mass appears to swing back at one point, it is on a circular arc and is coming around to power the punch. That's how you use a "T step."



I always see this exact same footwork in any TWC video. If you watch the feet they are always stepping out and backward, where their heels point, while circling around. Lead foot out, rear foot back. Lead foot out, rear foot back. Round and round. Never forward into the opponent, leaving a big gap.

---Again, that's the T step. Its not the only step used. But it is a good footwork to use when flanking. And that big gap that you are seeing is very difficult for the opponent to take advantage of. And one should immediately "fill the gap" with a counter attack.


, if you allow so much space, you're not really in a much safer or superior position. The opponent is still easily able to adjust and continue throwing power shots at that distance.

--I guess that's a matter of opinion! Most TWC people would disgree with you!


As you continue to block and circle away, it's just a matter of time. If you don't affect their balance or facing, just slapping at that one arm isn't going to keep you safe.

---True. But again, you don't just keep blocking and circling away. That is just to set up the opponent for your counter.


Now, getting to the "blind side" and driving right up the center aren't the only options. It is possible to shut down the one arm and disrupt balance and facing, effectively getting to the same "blind side" to avoid retaliation from the other arm while driving body mass into the center. It just takes a different angling footwork and skill set.

---True! And I will agree that most TWC guys don't make as much use of that tactic as they should! That is the "take their space and smash their face" philosophy! TWC sometimes seems to put an over-emphasis on staying out at that middle punching range rather than just "running over" the opponent and dominating them completely! That tactic is the aspect I like about CSL Wing Chun! So when I do TWC, I'm not really a "purist." I tend to mix in other things I've learned as well. But its all still Wing Chun!

[Phil Redmond]

I usually watch what they do, more than listen to what they say, because it often doesn't match up.

The only time he steps in is when the partner pulls his punch back without throwing a second and he is caused to fully extend his reach during an attempt to contact and trap that retracting arm. Bit of an arm-chase, I'd say. Dangerous to chase like that when you know a second punch is likely coming.



Watch the feet when he circles out. They are moving away.

The lead foot circles off to the side. The rear foot follows the heel stepping backward, with reference to his own body.

This is moving away from the incoming right round punch, and backward along the perimeter of the circle.

The result is he's affording the opponent ample space to adjust and continue attacking, while he moves away and has to put up some sort of block, while also taking body mass in the opposite direction of where he's intending to put force in his own punch.

I always see this exact same footwork in any TWC video. If you watch the feet they are always stepping out and backward, where their heels point, while circling around. Lead foot out, rear foot back. Lead foot out, rear foot back. Round and round. Never forward into the opponent, leaving a big gap.



The idea is not a bad one. The thing is though, if you allow so much space, you're not really in a much safer or superior position. The opponent is still easily able to adjust and continue throwing power shots at that distance. As you continue to block and circle away, it's just a matter of time. If you don't affect their balance or facing, just slapping at that one arm isn't going to keep you safe.

Now, getting to the "blind side" and driving right up the center aren't the only options. It is possible to shut down the one arm and disrupt balance and facing, effectively getting to the same "blind side" to avoid retaliation from the other arm while driving body mass into the center. It just takes a different angling footwork and skill set.

I was demonstrating a static drill from my students. I understand your concern but I know what I'm doing and how to make it work real time. With regard to my footwork it's called a T step and used to get offline. If you're a large guy and your opponent is smaller you can simply charge down the middle. I wouldn't recommend that for a woman or smaller man.

[Phil Redmond]

I just don't like how TWC stays out at the end of the opponent's punches and tries to block everything where it's most powerful.

If the opponent throws that second punch, which they will, you have to suddenly abandon your plan of entering, and change your footwork to stay out, circling away, keeping distance, and blocking again.

It doesn't matter that you're throwing a punch with the wu, because you're stepping backward taking power away from your point of force.

I've used this in full contact matches. I'm not going to change what has worked for me until it doesn't

[LFJ]

I've used this in full contact matches.

What matches?