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Thread: Central Line Bong Sau vs. Center Line Bong Sau

  1. #1
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    Central Line Bong Sau vs. Center Line Bong Sau


  2. #2
    a much different approach to bong!

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    I just don't like how TWC stays out at the end of the opponent's punches and tries to block everything where it's most powerful.

    If the opponent throws that second punch, which they will, you have to suddenly abandon your plan of entering, and change your footwork to stay out, circling away, keeping distance, and blocking again.

    It doesn't matter that you're throwing a punch with the wu, because you're stepping backward taking power away from your point of force.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    I just don't like how TWC stays out at the end of the opponent's punches and tries to block everything where it's most powerful.

    If the opponent throws that second punch, which they will, you have to suddenly abandon your plan of entering, and change your footwork to stay out, circling away, keeping distance, and blocking again.

    It doesn't matter that you're throwing a punch with the wu, because you're stepping backward taking power away from your point of force.
    Well, Phil clearly states in that video that he is using forward pressure. He is stepping in. He is only engaging from further out first because that is where he happens to be when the punch comes. He clearly says in the video that you have to be prepared for that second punch, which is why you Lop forward and not downward and why you keep the Wu ready to defend. And he isn't stepping backward, he is angling to the side. In the video, when the second punch comes, he doesn't move away.

    But as an overall strategy I see what you are saying. TWC will often place more emphasis on flanking the opponent to get to their "blind side" over driving right into their center. The idea is that if you only have to effectively deal with one arm at a time, you are in a safer and superior position. In contrast, driving into the center seeks to disrupt the opponent's balance to making it harder for them to land a good strike, even if both arms are still in play. Just different approaches.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KPM View Post
    Well, Phil clearly states in that video that he is using forward pressure. He is stepping in.
    I usually watch what they do, more than listen to what they say, because it often doesn't match up.

    The only time he steps in is when the partner pulls his punch back without throwing a second and he is caused to fully extend his reach during an attempt to contact and trap that retracting arm. Bit of an arm-chase, I'd say. Dangerous to chase like that when you know a second punch is likely coming.

    he isn't stepping backward, he is angling to the side. In the video, when the second punch comes, he doesn't move away.
    Watch the feet when he circles out. They are moving away.

    The lead foot circles off to the side. The rear foot follows the heel stepping backward, with reference to his own body.

    This is moving away from the incoming right round punch, and backward along the perimeter of the circle.

    The result is he's affording the opponent ample space to adjust and continue attacking, while he moves away and has to put up some sort of block, while also taking body mass in the opposite direction of where he's intending to put force in his own punch.

    I always see this exact same footwork in any TWC video. If you watch the feet they are always stepping out and backward, where their heels point, while circling around. Lead foot out, rear foot back. Lead foot out, rear foot back. Round and round. Never forward into the opponent, leaving a big gap.

    TWC will often place more emphasis on flanking the opponent to get to their "blind side" over driving right into their center. The idea is that if you only have to effectively deal with one arm at a time, you are in a safer and superior position. In contrast, driving into the center seeks to disrupt the opponent's balance to making it harder for them to land a good strike, even if both arms are still in play.
    The idea is not a bad one. The thing is though, if you allow so much space, you're not really in a much safer or superior position. The opponent is still easily able to adjust and continue throwing power shots at that distance. As you continue to block and circle away, it's just a matter of time. If you don't affect their balance or facing, just slapping at that one arm isn't going to keep you safe.

    Now, getting to the "blind side" and driving right up the center aren't the only options. It is possible to shut down the one arm and disrupt balance and facing, effectively getting to the same "blind side" to avoid retaliation from the other arm while driving body mass into the center. It just takes a different angling footwork and skill set.

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    The only time he steps in is when the partner pulls his punch back without throwing a second and he is caused to fully extend his reach during an attempt to contact and trap that retracting arm. Bit of an arm-chase, I'd say. Dangerous to chase like that when you know a second punch is likely coming.

    ---I'd say it is chasing center. He defends from the outer range as he steps off the line and then when the opponent naturally retracts his arm Phil steps and follows it in to attack into the center. He's just covering the arm on the way in.



    Watch the feet when he circles out. They are moving away.

    ---No. His lead foot stays planted as his rear foot moves up to it in a "T step". This moves his body off the attacking line and his body appears to shift back a bit. But his lead foot stays planted. Then the lead foot steps forward and towards the opponent.


    The lead foot circles off to the side. The rear foot follows the heel stepping backward, with reference to his own body.

    ---The lead foot may step off to the side during the "T step" for better angling. But it is not moving back away from the opponent and giving up distance.


    This is moving away from the incoming right round punch, and backward along the perimeter of the circle.

    ---You do realize, that since the perimeter is circular and in front of the opponent, one side of your body can move back as the other side moves forward?


    The result is he's affording the opponent ample space to adjust and continue attacking,


    ---Possibly. But the whole point in flanking like this is to reach a position where it is easy for you to continue to attack but hard for the opponent to continue to attack. Just look at the awkward position his opponent would have to attack from. And one advantage to leaving this space, is that it allows space to kick, or to further adjust the angle with footwork if needed, etc.


    while he moves away and has to put up some sort of block, while also taking body mass in the opposite direction of where he's intending to put force in his own punch.

    ---You pointed out yourself that the perimeter and therefore the way he is moving is circular. So if his body mass appears to swing back at one point, it is on a circular arc and is coming around to power the punch. That's how you use a "T step."



    I always see this exact same footwork in any TWC video. If you watch the feet they are always stepping out and backward, where their heels point, while circling around. Lead foot out, rear foot back. Lead foot out, rear foot back. Round and round. Never forward into the opponent, leaving a big gap.

    ---Again, that's the T step. Its not the only step used. But it is a good footwork to use when flanking. And that big gap that you are seeing is very difficult for the opponent to take advantage of. And one should immediately "fill the gap" with a counter attack.


    , if you allow so much space, you're not really in a much safer or superior position. The opponent is still easily able to adjust and continue throwing power shots at that distance.

    --I guess that's a matter of opinion! Most TWC people would disgree with you!


    As you continue to block and circle away, it's just a matter of time. If you don't affect their balance or facing, just slapping at that one arm isn't going to keep you safe.

    ---True. But again, you don't just keep blocking and circling away. That is just to set up the opponent for your counter.


    Now, getting to the "blind side" and driving right up the center aren't the only options. It is possible to shut down the one arm and disrupt balance and facing, effectively getting to the same "blind side" to avoid retaliation from the other arm while driving body mass into the center. It just takes a different angling footwork and skill set.

    ---True! And I will agree that most TWC guys don't make as much use of that tactic as they should! That is the "take their space and smash their face" philosophy! TWC sometimes seems to put an over-emphasis on staying out at that middle punching range rather than just "running over" the opponent and dominating them completely! That tactic is the aspect I like about CSL Wing Chun! So when I do TWC, I'm not really a "purist." I tend to mix in other things I've learned as well. But its all still Wing Chun!

  7. #7
    Yup, the best world is one that you can switch seamlessly​ between these ideas with no predudice. This also includes side body or center body. The situation will create the effect. Any attachments to one way or another will limit the deal. If I feel any hang ups in my oponent, particularly because of the ' beliefs' of their house I get an instant advantage.
    Last edited by Happy Tiger; 03-19-2017 at 01:40 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KPM View Post
    ---I'd say it is chasing center. He defends from the outer range as he steps off the line and then when the opponent naturally retracts his arm Phil steps and follows it in to attack into the center. He's just covering the arm on the way in.
    The problem I was getting at was that in attempting to cover the arm on the way in, he fully extended his arm and was quite committed to following that arm back.

    If suddenly a second punch comes, his response is to switch up everything entirely mid-action, including the direction he's moving.

    Once body mass is already committed in one direction, with outstretched arms, it will be difficult to change footwork and everything to another direction in time.

    Easy when done slowly and relaxed.

    ---The lead foot may step off to the side during the "T step" for better angling. But it is not moving back away from the opponent and giving up distance.
    Not back away, but to the side away, which does give up distance.

    This is moving away from the incoming right round punch, and backward along the perimeter of the circle.

    ---You do realize, that since the perimeter is circular and in front of the opponent, one side of your body can move back as the other side moves forward?
    If his lead foot is at the center point of the circle, and rear foot along the perimeter, as he steps his lead foot to the side, and slides his rear foot backward, the whole circle, his body mass, is actually being moved away from the opponent.

    ---You pointed out yourself that the perimeter and therefore the way he is moving is circular. So if his body mass appears to swing back at one point, it is on a circular arc and is coming around to power the punch. That's how you use a "T step."
    He's not pivoting and using rotational force, but stepping away with both feet, taking his body mass in the opposite direction of the straight punch. Meaning it's all arm.



    The result is he's affording the opponent ample space to adjust and continue attacking,

    ---Possibly. But the whole point in flanking like this is to reach a position where it is easy for you to continue to attack but hard for the opponent to continue to attack. Just look at the awkward position his opponent would have to attack from. And one advantage to leaving this space, is that it allows space to kick, or to further adjust the angle with footwork if needed, etc.
    Here's the 1-2.



    Doesn't look awkward or difficult to attack from at all. It's a power stance with hips directed straight at him. It's more awkward for Phil to do anything from the position he put himself in, moving backward all duck footed waiting to be taken over.

    If either of them are to kick, the attacker is the one with the better angle, stance, momentum, and obvious target to kick.

    If the ideal is to get further around the opponent, well, it didn't even work too well in a slow demo.

    And that big gap that you are seeing is very difficult for the opponent to take advantage of. And one should immediately "fill the gap" with a counter attack.
    What's to stop the opponent from taking advantage of it? He has not been affected in any way.

    If he kept both hands up, they'd still at best be at equal advantage, or he'd be at more advantage.

    , if you allow so much space, you're not really in a much safer or superior position. The opponent is still easily able to adjust and continue throwing power shots at that distance.

    --I guess that's a matter of opinion! Most TWC people would disgree with you!
    He's either able to, or he isn't. And he is, so it's not really a matter of opinion.

    As you continue to block and circle away, it's just a matter of time. If you don't affect their balance or facing, just slapping at that one arm isn't going to keep you safe.

    ---True. But again, you don't just keep blocking and circling away. That is just to set up the opponent for your counter.
    But as we see, nothing has been done to set the opponent up. His facing, balance, arms, or anything has not been affected. He's able to continue just the same.

    TWC sometimes seems to put an over-emphasis on staying out at that middle punching range rather than just "running over" the opponent and dominating them completely!
    Which is obviously the main problem I have with it.

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    If suddenly a second punch comes, his response is to switch up everything entirely mid-action, including the direction he's moving.


    ---Watch the video. He doesn't have to switch up everything when the second punch comes. He is planning on the second coming!


    Once body mass is already committed in one direction, with outstretched arms, it will be difficult to change footwork and everything to another direction in time.


    ---No it's not. Because he is moving off the line of that second punch. Again, watch the video. Phil isn't having any problems.




    Not back away, but to the side away, which does give up distance.


    ---No it doesn't! Just look at the **** video! If you are following the perimeter of a circle you are not moving further away from the center. The opponent is at the center.





    If his lead foot is at the center point of the circle, and rear foot along the perimeter, as he steps his lead foot to the side, and slides his rear foot backward, the whole circle, his body mass, is actually being moved away from the opponent.

    ---The opponent is at the center of the circle. BOTH of Phil's feet are on the perimeter of the circle.



    He's not pivoting and using rotational force, but stepping away with both feet, taking his body mass in the opposite direction of the straight punch. Meaning it's all arm.


    ---Nope. Are we watching the same video? Look at his lead hip. The lead hip moves towards the opponent as he punches.




    Doesn't look awkward or difficult to attack from at all. It's a power stance with hips directed straight at him. It's more awkward for Phil to do anything from the position he put himself in, moving backward all duck footed waiting to be taken over.

    ---Again....the whole point of the T step is that you are moving off the line of the original attack. Look at the images you posted. Phil is NOT where the opponent expected him to be and his punch is off-target. For him to redirect that second punch he would have to change his balance and shift his body, which is more difficult to do.




    If either of them are to kick, the attacker is the one with the better angle, stance, momentum, and obvious target to kick.


    ---Geez! Look at the picture you posted! After that initial punch Phil is no longer standing in front of the opponent. The opponent is no longer facing towards Phil. Again, I get the distinct impression here you are just trying to argue for arguments sake alone!





    He's either able to, or he isn't. And he is, so it's not really a matter of opinion.

    ---You are always so certain of your opinions. Unwilling to see the other side of things. That's why nearly every discussion with you turns into an argument. So you just go on believing whatever you want to believe. We seem to be looking at two different videos.
    Last edited by KPM; 03-20-2017 at 03:30 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KPM View Post
    He doesn't have to switch up everything when the second punch comes. He is planning on the second coming!
    He first shows his intention is to enter while trapping the lead arm, stepping in toward the opponent.

    That's against a single shot.

    When the 1-2 comes, he no longer steps in toward the opponent, but to the side away from the opponent.

    Yes, that is a big change. He cannot move his feet faster than a punch, especially to change directions by the time the incoming punch registers when his intent and body mass was moving forward.

    Works fine in slow-mo.

    Once body mass is already committed in one direction, with outstretched arms, it will be difficult to change footwork and everything to another direction in time.

    ---No it's not. Because he is moving off the line of that second punch. Again, watch the video. Phil isn't having any problems.
    He's not having any problems because it's a very slow demo and he knows what is coming.

    Not back away, but to the side away, which does give up distance.

    ---No it doesn't! Just look at the **** video! If you are following the perimeter of a circle you are not moving further away from the center. The opponent is at the center.
    You have not understood me.

    I said a circle of his own footwork, with the lead foot being the center point. This is in reference to his own feet and body, not the opponent.

    Whenever he moves the lead foot, it moves his circle about, and the rear foot adjusts facing like a rudder.

    Whenever he moves both feet off to the side, that moves his body away from the opponent, and gives up space.

    You can see this by watching where his spine goes in space. The body follows the feet. It is away from the opponent.

    If he had a colored circle beneath him like the active player on Madden NFL or something, you'd clearly see him moving away from the opponent.



    If his lead foot is at the center point of the circle, and rear foot along the perimeter, as he steps his lead foot to the side, and slides his rear foot backward, the whole circle, his body mass, is actually being moved away from the opponent.

    ---The opponent is at the center of the circle. BOTH of Phil's feet are on the perimeter of the circle.
    You have redefined the circle I was using to illustrate my point.

    He's not pivoting and using rotational force, but stepping away with both feet, taking his body mass in the opposite direction of the straight punch. Meaning it's all arm.

    ---Nope. Are we watching the same video? Look at his lead hip. The lead hip moves towards the opponent as he punches.
    We might not be! Or you're not following my explanation.

    His body mass is moving away from the opponent, because both feet are stepping away.

    ---Again....the whole point of the T step is that you are moving off the line of the original attack. Look at the images you posted. Phil is NOT where the opponent expected him to be and his punch is off-target. For him to redirect that second punch he would have to change his balance and shift his body, which is more difficult to do.
    The second one was a bit of a round punch, and it wasn't off-target. It was just blocked.

    The opponent's balance and facing were not at all compromised. He can easily continue chasing Phil who is running away backward and duck footed.

    If either of them are to kick, the attacker is the one with the better angle, stance, momentum, and obvious target to kick.

    ---Geez! Look at the picture you posted! After that initial punch Phil is no longer standing in front of the opponent. The opponent is no longer facing towards Phil.
    Not really a big change in position. Still in front of him. Wouldn't take much adjustment to speak of.

    Right kick to the cojones would be an easy follow up while Phil is busy stepping duck footed backward and blocking arms.

    He's either able to, or he isn't. And he is, so it's not really a matter of opinion.

    ---You are always so certain of your opinions. Unwilling to see the other side of things. That's why nearly every discussion with you turns into an argument. So you just go on believing whatever you want to believe. We seem to be looking at two different videos.
    Are you telling me if you threw a 1-2 combo at someone and they sidestepped ever so slightly off center, that would totally throw you off and you wouldn't be able to easily adjust and continue throwing power shots given the space and range the opponent has afforded you??

    The guy has not been affected in any way whatsoever beyond having his opponent a couple degrees left of where he was. What's the big difficulty?

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    He first shows his intention is to enter while trapping the lead arm, stepping in toward the opponent.

    That's against a single shot.

    When the 1-2 comes, he no longer steps in toward the opponent, but to the side away from the opponent.

    Yes, that is a big change. He cannot move his feet faster than a punch, especially to change directions by the time the incoming punch registers when his intent and body mass was moving forward.

    Works fine in slow-mo.



    He's not having any problems because it's a very slow demo and he knows what is coming.



    You have not understood me.

    I said a circle of his own footwork, with the lead foot being the center point. This is in reference to his own feet and body, not the opponent.

    Whenever he moves the lead foot, it moves his circle about, and the rear foot adjusts facing like a rudder.

    Whenever he moves both feet off to the side, that moves his body away from the opponent, and gives up space.

    You can see this by watching where his spine goes in space. The body follows the feet. It is away from the opponent.

    If he had a colored circle beneath him like the active player on Madden NFL or something, you'd clearly see him moving away from the opponent.





    You have redefined the circle I was using to illustrate my point.



    We might not be! Or you're not following my explanation.

    His body mass is moving away from the opponent, because both feet are stepping away.



    The second one was a bit of a round punch, and it wasn't off-target. It was just blocked.

    The opponent's balance and facing were not at all compromised. He can easily continue chasing Phil who is running away backward and duck footed.



    Not really a big change in position. Still in front of him. Wouldn't take much adjustment to speak of.

    Right kick to the cojones would be an easy follow up while Phil is busy stepping duck footed backward and blocking arms.



    Are you telling me if you threw a 1-2 combo at someone and they sidestepped ever so slightly off center, that would totally throw you off and you wouldn't be able to easily adjust and continue throwing power shots given the space and range the opponent has afforded you??

    The guy has not been affected in any way whatsoever beyond having his opponent a couple degrees left of where he was. What's the big difficulty?
    Interesting that the word believe has been used. This is all very good tech but what has been your experience? People here are so often long on reading their manuals out loud but don't share enough what happened when they did it...Or tried it.Every one here is exceptionally well trained yet seem loathe to share their experiences. Do any of us actually Frikin fight???
    Last edited by Happy Tiger; 03-20-2017 at 09:39 AM.
    "Wing Chun is a bell that appears when rung.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Tiger View Post
    Interesting that the word believe has been used.
    Not in my post.

    This is all very good tech but what has been your experience? People here are so often long on reading their manuals out loud but don't share enough what happened when they did it...Or tried it.Every one here is exceptionally well trained yet seem loathe to share their experiences. Do any of us actually Frikin fight???
    Maybe you don't.

    I don't have any reason to make assumptions about people I don't know because they post on forums.

    I just don't use this method for the various flaws I see with it, which I've tried to share my thoughts on. So?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post





    I just don't use this method for the various flaws I see with it, which I've tried to share my thoughts on. So?

    The problem is that you are not accurately describing what is actually happening in the video we are talking about. That seems a bit...shall we say..."dishonest"???

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    Quote Originally Posted by KPM View Post
    The problem is that you are not accurately describing what is actually happening in the video we are talking about. That seems a bit...shall we say..."dishonest"???
    The problem is you haven't understood half of what I said. But, oh well.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    Not in my post.



    Maybe you don't.

    I don't have any reason to make assumptions about people I don't know because they post on forums.

    I just don't use this method for the various flaws I see with it, which I've tried to share my thoughts on. So?
    no, no... That's​ totally cool. All I'm asking is pepper the science with ancidot. I read everything you guys write. It's always special when the information is shared with a tru life reference. Including fail. I like to fight. There's no shame in loosing a fight. We chunners are often not to keen on investing in combat lose. That, iny opinion is the main weakness of VT today. Unlike or ancestors who seemed to gleefully wade in to combat and win or loose there's something to share
    "Wing Chun is a bell that appears when rung.

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