Central Line Bong Sau vs. Center Line Bong Sau

[LFJ]

Well
..One of GM Ip Man earliest students was a big talented pugilist known as Leung Shung. One of his last was a so called closed door student which we know as sigong Leung Ting. If you take a moment to view it from a anthropological perspective you will likey see they Were/ are doing VT in pretty well exactly the same way.

LS was LT's teacher.

Now I never had the honor of studying Pin Sun but it seems to have many of the points that define it to be it.

And it is entirely different from TWC, as is WT.

[Phil Redmond]

I just don't like how TWC stays out at the end of the opponent's punches and tries to block everything where it's most powerful.

If the opponent throws that second punch, which they will, you have to suddenly abandon your plan of entering, and change your footwork to stay out, circling away, keeping distance, and blocking again.

It doesn't matter that you're throwing a punch with the wu, because you're stepping backward taking power away from your point of force.

I've used this in full contact matches. I'm not going to change what has worked for me until it doesn't

[LFJ]

I've used this in full contact matches.

What matches?

[Phil Redmond]

I usually watch what they do, more than listen to what they say, because it often doesn't match up.

The only time he steps in is when the partner pulls his punch back without throwing a second and he is caused to fully extend his reach during an attempt to contact and trap that retracting arm. Bit of an arm-chase, I'd say. Dangerous to chase like that when you know a second punch is likely coming.



Watch the feet when he circles out. They are moving away.

The lead foot circles off to the side. The rear foot follows the heel stepping backward, with reference to his own body.

This is moving away from the incoming right round punch, and backward along the perimeter of the circle.

The result is he's affording the opponent ample space to adjust and continue attacking, while he moves away and has to put up some sort of block, while also taking body mass in the opposite direction of where he's intending to put force in his own punch.

I always see this exact same footwork in any TWC video. If you watch the feet they are always stepping out and backward, where their heels point, while circling around. Lead foot out, rear foot back. Lead foot out, rear foot back. Round and round. Never forward into the opponent, leaving a big gap.



The idea is not a bad one. The thing is though, if you allow so much space, you're not really in a much safer or superior position. The opponent is still easily able to adjust and continue throwing power shots at that distance. As you continue to block and circle away, it's just a matter of time. If you don't affect their balance or facing, just slapping at that one arm isn't going to keep you safe.

Now, getting to the "blind side" and driving right up the center aren't the only options. It is possible to shut down the one arm and disrupt balance and facing, effectively getting to the same "blind side" to avoid retaliation from the other arm while driving body mass into the center. It just takes a different angling footwork and skill set.

I was demonstrating a static drill from my students. I understand your concern but I know what I'm doing and how to make it work real time. With regard to my footwork it's called a T step and used to get offline. If you're a large guy and your opponent is smaller you can simply charge down the middle. I wouldn't recommend that for a woman or smaller man.

[LFJ]

With regard to my footwork it's called a T step and used to get offline. If you're a large guy and your opponent is smaller you can simply charge down the middle. I wouldn't recommend that for a woman or smaller man.

They are not the only two options.

[Phil Redmond]

The problem I was getting at was that in attempting to cover the arm on the way in, he fully extended his arm and was quite committed to following that arm back.

If suddenly a second punch comes, his response is to switch up everything entirely mid-action, including the direction he's moving.

Once body mass is already committed in one direction, with outstretched arms, it will be difficult to change footwork and everything to another direction in time.

Easy when done slowly and relaxed.



Not back away, but to the side away, which does give up distance.



If his lead foot is at the center point of the circle, and rear foot along the perimeter, as he steps his lead foot to the side, and slides his rear foot backward, the whole circle, his body mass, is actually being moved away from the opponent.



He's not pivoting and using rotational force, but stepping away with both feet, taking his body mass in the opposite direction of the straight punch. Meaning it's all arm.





Here's the 1-2.



Doesn't look awkward or difficult to attack from at all. It's a power stance with hips directed straight at him. It's more awkward for Phil to do anything from the position he put himself in, moving backward all duck footed waiting to be taken over.

If either of them are to kick, the attacker is the one with the better angle, stance, momentum, and obvious target to kick.

If the ideal is to get further around the opponent, well, it didn't even work too well in a slow demo.



What's to stop the opponent from taking advantage of it? He has not been affected in any way.

If he kept both hands up, they'd still at best be at equal advantage, or he'd be at more advantage.



He's either able to, or he isn't. And he is, so it's not really a matter of opinion.



But as we see, nothing has been done to set the opponent up. His facing, balance, arms, or anything has not been affected. He's able to continue just the same.



Which is obviously the main problem I have with it.

Opinions differ. Also, I actually teach students to stand in place while a partner wearing forearm pads throws full power round punches at them. It's not all arm. It's also stance. Anyone who has trained with me knows that. I don't believe I let myself be drawn into this by someone who has never met me in person to see/feel what I do. No disrespect intended.

[LFJ]

I actually teach students to stand in place while a partner wearing forearm pads throws full power round punches at them. It's not all arm. It's also stance.

Okay? That has nothing to do with your counter punch, which was done moving body mass in the opposite direction.

[Phil Redmond]

We all can't look alike and we all have different strengths and weaknesses. That's why I stay away from criticizing things I see in videos without understanding the whole picture. I have better things to do. I'm a former full contact competitor who had successfully used Wing Chun in the ring. If it doesn't work, I won't teach it. Back to "doing" Wing Chun.

[LFJ]

I'm a former full contact competitor who had successfully used Wing Chun in the ring.

Where? ....

[Happy Tiger]

LS was LT's teacher.



And it is entirely different from TWC, as is WT.

Yes that's my point!!!! They were both taught by Ip Man.... Get it????

[Happy Tiger]

Where? ....

this is fun😊

[Happy Tiger]

LS was LT's teacher.



And it is entirely different from TWC, as is WT.

Sigh for the first knowledge. Kudos for the latter. You are bringing my next point

[LFJ]

Get it????

Sorry, I don't speak Hippie.

[KPM]

There's really not that much to it.

It's just; here's this move from a form, and here's how you apply it against this attack.

WSLVT doesn't do that. TWC does.



Current being the operative word. Most YM derived WC no longer functions in a way that would make this relevant to them.



In this case, I really don't care what anyone else's opinion of it is if they don't even train something remotely similar.

So yeah, I'm not interested in sharing that idea. I only brought it up on the other forum because someone was trying to say YM invented his own pole form, which is demonstrably false.

So it sounds like your answer is "no, I am not going to share anything about my Wing Chun" and "yes, I am only here to criticize and tear down others"!!!!

[Phil Redmond]

So it sounds like your answer is "no, I am not going to share anything about my Wing Chun" and "yes, I am only here to criticize and tear down others"!!!!

The guy said that we stay wher the power is. That's not the case. Seeing some demos doesn't mean a person knows what's really going on. It would be great to see some of his applications. I cool with sharing mine because they've been tested. We have monthly amateur full contact fights at my L.A. school. Anyone is welcome to fight. Btw Keith, I'm doing a BJD seminar in N.Y. May 7. You're very welcome to come.