Central Line Bong Sau vs. Center Line Bong Sau

[guy b.]

Unless I am attacking first, yes.
I prefer contact as the opponent then tells me how to respond.
My opponent shows me how to beat them.

However, I have been thinking of taking up the approach your group seems to promote.
I am going to consult a physic the next time I get into a fight.
That should work just as well as having no "applications"

If you don't know something then it is probably better to ask than to guess.

[Sihing73]

If you don't know something then it is probably better to ask than to guess.

Yet you do not need to "know" in order to be able to respond.
I have been in situations where I was attacked without warning, it was because I did not "know" or have to think that I am still around. That and the Grace of God.

It is pretty hard to explain but it goes to awareness.
When I was younger I started out with Judo and some Karate.
When I was around 12 or 13 I was walking home and going down an alley.
I was not paying particular attention to anything and was kind of zoned out, daydreaming while heading home.
The next thing I knew there was a guy laying on the ground to my side with a board next to him.
He had come up on me and apparently swung the board which I think was a 2X4 or something like that.
I do not even remember seeing him or hitting him but apparently I sensed the threat and responded and dropped him.
He turned out to be a friend of mine playing a joke on me.

I don't try to guess at what my opponent might do, chances are I will get it wrong on be too busy trying to figure it out to respond accordingly.
I find that if I cover an area and try to make any attacks come in a certain area then the attack has to make contact with me and if positioned properly allows me to respond. I also believe strongly in the idea of constant forward energy. Once engage the attack continues until the threat is eliminated.

Of course it is easy to say this on an online forum.
For all you know I could be either a 10 year old girl or the proverbial 90 pound weakling.
Does not mean I know anything even if I can spin it well.

One of my saying is that "knowledge is never wasted".

[KPM]

When I was going to the PA State Police Academy they trained boxing. One of my favorite things was to throw a punch which I wanted to be blocked or parried at the wrist area. Once that happened I would rotate my elbow and hit the opponent with a backfist. Now even though everyone knew what I was doing I was able to score just about every time. Mainly because they did not have the sensitivity to change the line once they punched or parried. Still, for this to work I needed to make contact as it was their energy in the block or parry that drove my elbow rotation. Had they blocked or parried in a different way my response would have been different due to the different energy presented.

I follow what you are saying Dave. But consider this.....is it not possible to have good timing and sensitivity so that you throw your punch, see the expected block coming, and rotate with the backfist just before contact, actually avoiding contact? Isn't this a "pre-contact" sensitivity to the opponent's energy?

[KPM]

U

However, I have been thinking of taking up the approach your group seems to promote.
I am going to consult a physic the next time I get into a fight.
That should work just as well as having no "applications"

Watch out Dave. I'm sure that comment is considered "trolling" by some here!

[guy b.]

Watch out Dave. I'm sure that comment is considered "trolling" by some here!

Please stop trolling

[Sihing73]

I follow what you are saying Dave. But consider this.....is it not possible to have good timing and sensitivity so that you throw your punch, see the expected block coming, and rotate with the backfist just before contact, actually avoiding contact? Isn't this a "pre-contact" sensitivity to the opponent's energy?

Sorry, but I do not believe this is possible and certainly not on a consistent basis in actual combat.
When you throw a punch, unless deliberately throwing a fake, the punch should be real and make contact unless it is intercepted in some way. To throw a punch without doing so fully with the idea of reacting pre contact is not something I view as realistic or practical.

The reason the backfist in my example worked is reliant on the energy given by the opponent once contact was made.

[KPM]

Sorry, but I do not believe this is possible and certainly not on a consistent basis in actual combat.
When you throw a punch, unless deliberately throwing a fake, the punch should be real and make contact unless it is intercepted in some way. To throw a punch without doing so fully with the idea of reacting pre contact is not something I view as realistic or practical.

.

JKD guys train this fairly regularly. It is part of the "swinging gate" drill. Bruce Lee talked about using Chi Sau skills "pre-contact." It really is no different from a Boxer that throws a jab knowing it will be parried in order to set the opponent up for a cross. If his timing is good, he can snap the jab back before the parry makes contact and then the opponent is even more open for the cross.

"Baiting" the opponent to move in a certain direction or leave an opening is also part of the "pre-contact" phase. That may involve presenting a punch that isn't intended to land, or leaving an opening on purpose to draw a strike in a specific gate, etc. This is all part of effective sparring or "squared off" fighting, and not really part of reactive self defense. So I realize that not everyone trains this way.

[Sihing73]

JKD guys train this fairly regularly. It is part of the "swinging gate" drill. Bruce Lee talked about using Chi Sau skills "pre-contact." It really is no different from a Boxer that throws a jab knowing it will be parried in order to set the opponent up for a cross. If his timing is good, he can snap the jab back before the parry makes contact and then the opponent is even more open for the cross.

"Baiting" the opponent to move in a certain direction or leave an opening is also part of the "pre-contact" phase. That may involve presenting a punch that isn't intended to land, or leaving an opening on purpose to draw a strike in a specific gate, etc. This is all part of effective sparring or "squared off" fighting, and not really part of reactive self defense. So I realize that not everyone trains this way.

You are welcome to do this if it works for you.
There are certainly times when you would throw a fake to draw the opponent into a specific reaction or position.
I guess the difference is that I was taught that if I throw an attack it is real. If the opponent fails to intercept the attack then they get hit.

As to JKD using this, all I will say is I used to spar with some JKD guys when I was in Philly.
I found them to be disconnected when they sparred. Now they may not have been that good so I try not to judge JKD based on them.
However, I was not that impressed with them.

I guess the difference between what we are talking about is that you seem to be working off the premise of throwing things and then trying to adjust your attack based on the opponents reaction before contact is made. You are hoping to be able to adjust and change mid attack.

I am saying I throw an attack and it will change only if the opponent intercepts it and gives me energy to change into something else. If his interception, for lack of a better word, is weak I may just continue along the same line and hit them. If his energy is stronger than mine then I will change my attack based on what is given. This is why I was doing using the backfist example. Which by the way could end up in several other responses depending on the energy received.

I try not to think when I fight. I train to attack and mold my responses based on what I get back from the opponent.
Of course this is easy to say but kind of hard to explain on an online forum. What I do is based on feeling what the opponent gives me, not what I think I should be doing.

The reality as I see it is that you are far more unlikely to be able to change mid attack with the amount of training that the average person can devote to training today. There is a far greater likelihood of success if you train to respond to contact and the energy you get, plus you can utilize that energy to fuel your response.

I won't say that what you are advocating is not possible, just highly unlikely to work consistently in a real fight.

[KPM]

I am saying I throw an attack and it will change only if the opponent intercepts it and gives me energy to change into something else. If his interception, for lack of a better word, is weak I may just continue along the same line and hit them. If his energy is stronger than mine then I will change my attack based on what is given. This is why I was doing using the backfist example. Which by the way could end up in several other responses depending on the energy received.

---I don't disagree with that at all. I'm just pointing out that there is room for working in the "pre-contact" phase rather than waiting passively for an opponent's attack to come, or charging in with your own attack. And in my experience, it isn't as hard to "time" a response as you seem to think.


I try not to think when I fight. I train to attack and mold my responses based on what I get back from the opponent.
Of course this is easy to say but kind of hard to explain on an online forum. What I do is based on feeling what the opponent gives me, not what I think I should be doing.

---Again, I think you are hitting on the difference between a "reactive self defense" mindset and a "sparring" or "squared off fighting" mindset. During the actual exchange someone should definitely be responding and reacting without thinking. This is the value of training Chi Sau. But in the "pre contact" phase there is room to apply a strategy that increases your chance of success. This might be positioning a piece of furniture between you and an armed opponent. Or subtly stepping and angling to his blindside as you both move around and jockey for position. Or switching your stance to either match or mis-match with his. Or presenting what appears to be a weakness or opening to bait him into attacking to a certain area or in a certain way, etc. I'll bet when you spar you do some of these kinds of things without really thinking about them as part of your Wing Chun. In TWC and in JKD this area is actually trained more specifically as part of the system.

[Sihing73]

[B]But in the "pre contact" phase there is room to apply a strategy that increases your chance of success. This might be positioning a piece of furniture between you and an armed opponent. Or subtly stepping and angling to his blindside as you both move around and jockey for position. Or switching your stance to either match or mis-match with his. Or presenting what appears to be a weakness or opening to bait him into attacking to a certain area or in a certain way, etc. I'll bet when you spar you do some of these kinds of things without really thinking about them as part of your Wing Chun. In TWC and in JKD this area is actually trained more specifically as part of the system.

I do not disagree with what you said, however this would, to my thinking be different than throwing an attack and changing said attack prior to contact.
Strategy such as environmental awareness would be a totally different aspect to my mind.

Tactics are one thing but relying on be able to modify your attack which has been launched in relation to what the opponent does after said launch is another thing entirely.

Certainly there are ways to fake out or feint the opponent to make them position themselves for your benefit. Shoot, stepping to the side and into an opponent is a tactic which can be used to accomplish this. But, to throw a punch and change it in mid swing is another matter and that is what you were describing, unless I missed something.

[LFJ]

Sorry, but I do not believe this is possible and certainly not on a consistent basis in actual combat.
When you throw a punch, unless deliberately throwing a fake, the punch should be real and make contact unless it is intercepted in some way. To throw a punch without doing so fully with the idea of reacting pre contact is not something I view as realistic or practical.

Good. It surprises me to hear this on a Wing Chun forum!

I often hear Wing Chun guys say they will throw out a taan-sau, and if unimpeded, it will continue it into a punch!

That means they don't have the intent to punch until almost fully extended, then they have to make the split-second decision to change hand shapes and intent.

An effective punch needs to be thrown with intent from the start.

Same thing with rolling one punch into another type of punch to detour around a defense you see come up after you've already launched. It's fantasy. Fighting doesn't happen in slow-motion allowing you to make such fine and perfectly timed adjustments.

Throwing a setup punch and transitioning into a real punch you intend to make count is a different story from throwing a punch you intend to land and expecting to make a reactive detour with it mid-attack.