Central Line Bong Sau vs. Center Line Bong Sau

[LFJ]

---I'd say it is chasing center. He defends from the outer range as he steps off the line and then when the opponent naturally retracts his arm Phil steps and follows it in to attack into the center. He's just covering the arm on the way in.

The problem I was getting at was that in attempting to cover the arm on the way in, he fully extended his arm and was quite committed to following that arm back.

If suddenly a second punch comes, his response is to switch up everything entirely mid-action, including the direction he's moving.

Once body mass is already committed in one direction, with outstretched arms, it will be difficult to change footwork and everything to another direction in time.

Easy when done slowly and relaxed.

---The lead foot may step off to the side during the "T step" for better angling. But it is not moving back away from the opponent and giving up distance.

Not back away, but to the side away, which does give up distance.

This is moving away from the incoming right round punch, and backward along the perimeter of the circle.

---You do realize, that since the perimeter is circular and in front of the opponent, one side of your body can move back as the other side moves forward?

If his lead foot is at the center point of the circle, and rear foot along the perimeter, as he steps his lead foot to the side, and slides his rear foot backward, the whole circle, his body mass, is actually being moved away from the opponent.

---You pointed out yourself that the perimeter and therefore the way he is moving is circular. So if his body mass appears to swing back at one point, it is on a circular arc and is coming around to power the punch. That's how you use a "T step."

He's not pivoting and using rotational force, but stepping away with both feet, taking his body mass in the opposite direction of the straight punch. Meaning it's all arm.

The result is he's affording the opponent ample space to adjust and continue attacking,

---Possibly. But the whole point in flanking like this is to reach a position where it is easy for you to continue to attack but hard for the opponent to continue to attack. Just look at the awkward position his opponent would have to attack from. And one advantage to leaving this space, is that it allows space to kick, or to further adjust the angle with footwork if needed, etc.

Here's the 1-2.



Doesn't look awkward or difficult to attack from at all. It's a power stance with hips directed straight at him. It's more awkward for Phil to do anything from the position he put himself in, moving backward all duck footed waiting to be taken over.

If either of them are to kick, the attacker is the one with the better angle, stance, momentum, and obvious target to kick.

If the ideal is to get further around the opponent, well, it didn't even work too well in a slow demo.

And that big gap that you are seeing is very difficult for the opponent to take advantage of. And one should immediately "fill the gap" with a counter attack.

What's to stop the opponent from taking advantage of it? He has not been affected in any way.

If he kept both hands up, they'd still at best be at equal advantage, or he'd be at more advantage.

, if you allow so much space, you're not really in a much safer or superior position. The opponent is still easily able to adjust and continue throwing power shots at that distance.

--I guess that's a matter of opinion! Most TWC people would disgree with you!

He's either able to, or he isn't. And he is, so it's not really a matter of opinion.

As you continue to block and circle away, it's just a matter of time. If you don't affect their balance or facing, just slapping at that one arm isn't going to keep you safe.

---True. But again, you don't just keep blocking and circling away. That is just to set up the opponent for your counter.

But as we see, nothing has been done to set the opponent up. His facing, balance, arms, or anything has not been affected. He's able to continue just the same.

TWC sometimes seems to put an over-emphasis on staying out at that middle punching range rather than just "running over" the opponent and dominating them completely!

Which is obviously the main problem I have with it.

[KPM]

If suddenly a second punch comes, his response is to switch up everything entirely mid-action, including the direction he's moving.

---Watch the video. He doesn't have to switch up everything when the second punch comes. He is planning on the second coming!


Once body mass is already committed in one direction, with outstretched arms, it will be difficult to change footwork and everything to another direction in time.


---No it's not. Because he is moving off the line of that second punch. Again, watch the video. Phil isn't having any problems.




Not back away, but to the side away, which does give up distance.

---No it doesn't! Just look at the **** video! If you are following the perimeter of a circle you are not moving further away from the center. The opponent is at the center.





If his lead foot is at the center point of the circle, and rear foot along the perimeter, as he steps his lead foot to the side, and slides his rear foot backward, the whole circle, his body mass, is actually being moved away from the opponent.

---The opponent is at the center of the circle. BOTH of Phil's feet are on the perimeter of the circle.



He's not pivoting and using rotational force, but stepping away with both feet, taking his body mass in the opposite direction of the straight punch. Meaning it's all arm.


---Nope. Are we watching the same video? Look at his lead hip. The lead hip moves towards the opponent as he punches.




Doesn't look awkward or difficult to attack from at all. It's a power stance with hips directed straight at him. It's more awkward for Phil to do anything from the position he put himself in, moving backward all duck footed waiting to be taken over.

---Again....the whole point of the T step is that you are moving off the line of the original attack. Look at the images you posted. Phil is NOT where the opponent expected him to be and his punch is off-target. For him to redirect that second punch he would have to change his balance and shift his body, which is more difficult to do.




If either of them are to kick, the attacker is the one with the better angle, stance, momentum, and obvious target to kick.


---Geez! Look at the picture you posted! After that initial punch Phil is no longer standing in front of the opponent. The opponent is no longer facing towards Phil. Again, I get the distinct impression here you are just trying to argue for arguments sake alone!





He's either able to, or he isn't. And he is, so it's not really a matter of opinion.

---You are always so certain of your opinions. Unwilling to see the other side of things. That's why nearly every discussion with you turns into an argument. So you just go on believing whatever you want to believe. We seem to be looking at two different videos.

[LFJ]

He doesn't have to switch up everything when the second punch comes. He is planning on the second coming!

He first shows his intention is to enter while trapping the lead arm, stepping in toward the opponent.

That's against a single shot.

When the 1-2 comes, he no longer steps in toward the opponent, but to the side away from the opponent.

Yes, that is a big change. He cannot move his feet faster than a punch, especially to change directions by the time the incoming punch registers when his intent and body mass was moving forward.

Works fine in slow-mo.

Once body mass is already committed in one direction, with outstretched arms, it will be difficult to change footwork and everything to another direction in time.

---No it's not. Because he is moving off the line of that second punch. Again, watch the video. Phil isn't having any problems.

He's not having any problems because it's a very slow demo and he knows what is coming.

Not back away, but to the side away, which does give up distance.

---No it doesn't! Just look at the **** video! If you are following the perimeter of a circle you are not moving further away from the center. The opponent is at the center.

You have not understood me.

I said a circle of his own footwork, with the lead foot being the center point. This is in reference to his own feet and body, not the opponent.

Whenever he moves the lead foot, it moves his circle about, and the rear foot adjusts facing like a rudder.

Whenever he moves both feet off to the side, that moves his body away from the opponent, and gives up space.

You can see this by watching where his spine goes in space. The body follows the feet. It is away from the opponent.

If he had a colored circle beneath him like the active player on Madden NFL or something, you'd clearly see him moving away from the opponent.

If his lead foot is at the center point of the circle, and rear foot along the perimeter, as he steps his lead foot to the side, and slides his rear foot backward, the whole circle, his body mass, is actually being moved away from the opponent.

---The opponent is at the center of the circle. BOTH of Phil's feet are on the perimeter of the circle.

You have redefined the circle I was using to illustrate my point.

He's not pivoting and using rotational force, but stepping away with both feet, taking his body mass in the opposite direction of the straight punch. Meaning it's all arm.

---Nope. Are we watching the same video? Look at his lead hip. The lead hip moves towards the opponent as he punches.

We might not be! Or you're not following my explanation.

His body mass is moving away from the opponent, because both feet are stepping away.

---Again....the whole point of the T step is that you are moving off the line of the original attack. Look at the images you posted. Phil is NOT where the opponent expected him to be and his punch is off-target. For him to redirect that second punch he would have to change his balance and shift his body, which is more difficult to do.

The second one was a bit of a round punch, and it wasn't off-target. It was just blocked.

The opponent's balance and facing were not at all compromised. He can easily continue chasing Phil who is running away backward and duck footed.

If either of them are to kick, the attacker is the one with the better angle, stance, momentum, and obvious target to kick.

---Geez! Look at the picture you posted! After that initial punch Phil is no longer standing in front of the opponent. The opponent is no longer facing towards Phil.

Not really a big change in position. Still in front of him. Wouldn't take much adjustment to speak of.

Right kick to the cojones would be an easy follow up while Phil is busy stepping duck footed backward and blocking arms.

He's either able to, or he isn't. And he is, so it's not really a matter of opinion.

---You are always so certain of your opinions. Unwilling to see the other side of things. That's why nearly every discussion with you turns into an argument. So you just go on believing whatever you want to believe. We seem to be looking at two different videos.

Are you telling me if you threw a 1-2 combo at someone and they sidestepped ever so slightly off center, that would totally throw you off and you wouldn't be able to easily adjust and continue throwing power shots given the space and range the opponent has afforded you??

The guy has not been affected in any way whatsoever beyond having his opponent a couple degrees left of where he was. What's the big difficulty?

[Happy Tiger]

He first shows his intention is to enter while trapping the lead arm, stepping in toward the opponent.

That's against a single shot.

When the 1-2 comes, he no longer steps in toward the opponent, but to the side away from the opponent.

Yes, that is a big change. He cannot move his feet faster than a punch, especially to change directions by the time the incoming punch registers when his intent and body mass was moving forward.

Works fine in slow-mo.



He's not having any problems because it's a very slow demo and he knows what is coming.



You have not understood me.

I said a circle of his own footwork, with the lead foot being the center point. This is in reference to his own feet and body, not the opponent.

Whenever he moves the lead foot, it moves his circle about, and the rear foot adjusts facing like a rudder.

Whenever he moves both feet off to the side, that moves his body away from the opponent, and gives up space.

You can see this by watching where his spine goes in space. The body follows the feet. It is away from the opponent.

If he had a colored circle beneath him like the active player on Madden NFL or something, you'd clearly see him moving away from the opponent.





You have redefined the circle I was using to illustrate my point.



We might not be! Or you're not following my explanation.

His body mass is moving away from the opponent, because both feet are stepping away.



The second one was a bit of a round punch, and it wasn't off-target. It was just blocked.

The opponent's balance and facing were not at all compromised. He can easily continue chasing Phil who is running away backward and duck footed.



Not really a big change in position. Still in front of him. Wouldn't take much adjustment to speak of.

Right kick to the cojones would be an easy follow up while Phil is busy stepping duck footed backward and blocking arms.



Are you telling me if you threw a 1-2 combo at someone and they sidestepped ever so slightly off center, that would totally throw you off and you wouldn't be able to easily adjust and continue throwing power shots given the space and range the opponent has afforded you??

The guy has not been affected in any way whatsoever beyond having his opponent a couple degrees left of where he was. What's the big difficulty?

Interesting that the word believe has been used. This is all very good tech but what has been your experience? People here are so often long on reading their manuals out loud but don't share enough what happened when they did it...Or tried it.Every one here is exceptionally well trained yet seem loathe to share their experiences. Do any of us actually Frikin fight???

[LFJ]

Interesting that the word believe has been used.

Not in my post.

This is all very good tech but what has been your experience? People here are so often long on reading their manuals out loud but don't share enough what happened when they did it...Or tried it.Every one here is exceptionally well trained yet seem loathe to share their experiences. Do any of us actually Frikin fight???

Maybe you don't.

I don't have any reason to make assumptions about people I don't know because they post on forums.

I just don't use this method for the various flaws I see with it, which I've tried to share my thoughts on. So?

[KPM]

I just don't use this method for the various flaws I see with it, which I've tried to share my thoughts on. So?

The problem is that you are not accurately describing what is actually happening in the video we are talking about. That seems a bit...shall we say..."dishonest"???

[LFJ]

The problem is that you are not accurately describing what is actually happening in the video we are talking about. That seems a bit...shall we say..."dishonest"???

The problem is you haven't understood half of what I said. But, oh well.

[Happy Tiger]

Not in my post.



Maybe you don't.

I don't have any reason to make assumptions about people I don't know because they post on forums.

I just don't use this method for the various flaws I see with it, which I've tried to share my thoughts on. So?

no, no... That's​ totally cool. All I'm asking is pepper the science with ancidot. I read everything you guys write. It's always special when the information is shared with a tru life reference. Including fail. I like to fight. There's no shame in loosing a fight. We chunners are often not to keen on investing in combat lose. That, iny opinion is the main weakness of VT today. Unlike or ancestors who seemed to gleefully wade in to combat and win or loose there's something to share

[Sihing73]

Hello,

I think that the reality of todays world makes fighting more dangerous in many ways and often represents a lose-lose no matter what.
In todays world you are likely to face multiple opponents and often a weapon. Also, even if you win you can be sued and still lose even if you were not the aggressor. When you consider that a person can break into your home and sue you if they injure themselves, fighting often offers similar potential issues.

To me it seems the smarter avenue is to avoid confrontation when at all possible.

Now as to making something work in a real situation; my opinion is that it is often not the technique or the skill of the person which is the determining factor but the mental aspect. Kind of like the old saying that "it's not the size of the dog in the fight but the size of the fight in the dog".

Many of us today may practice our art for recreation or part time, I highly doubt that most people are training with the expectation of needing to use their skills in real life. When I used to train Pekiti there were some really scary dudes and I told them if I thought I would be facing them on the street for real I would train differently. I did train for reality, at least I think I did, and have had one or two occasions to use what I trained as a Police Office and a Correctional Officer before that, but not as much as some people think.

You want to know what helped me?? Being able to take a hit. I would say that is one of the biggest failings most martial artists have. It is also one reason that Boxers are so good at "fighting" they are used to taking punishment and working through that to continue onward.

Much of what I do in Silat will not work if you do not apply it fully. No, I am not saying it is too dangerous for the street or that type of crap. What I am saying is that if you do not train to fully apply your techniques then they often will not work. The difference between applying a lock and taking someone to the ground and stopping halfway. Also, if you train halfway you will fight halfway. This does not mean you need to be hurting each other in training but you have to train to endure some pain.

I know Phil and he has fought and trained some others to fight as well. I also do not do things the same way he does but he has found some viable approaches that work for him and those he has trained. I think that in person he may do things a little differently than in a demo.

I think that if one trains to crowd your opponent while keeping structure you can make a lot of things work. Having said that, you will need to be able to take some punishment and keep on going if you opt to go that route. A lot of things can go wrong if your opponent knows what they are doing but if you can drive in and disrupt their balance and keep the pressure on...............................

Of course it is easy to type something and say it can work and I understand the desire to validate theory with actual application. However, in many cases that actual application is not needed or desired and can result in criminal charges even when you act in self defense. Just throwing that out there for what it's worth.

[Happy Tiger]

no, no... That's​ totally cool. All I'm asking is pepper the science with ancidot. I read everything you guys write. It's always special when the information is shared with a tru life reference. Including fail. I like to fight. There's no shame in loosing a fight. We chunners are often not to keen on investing in combat lose. That, iny opinion is the main weakness of VT today. Unlike or ancestors who seemed to gleefully wade in to combat and win or loose there's something to share

as a for instance. Bruce Lee had a love hate relationship with bong Sau. I'm one turn he would call it his secret weapon but if you actually study JKD it's plain that past the Seattle years bong sau..
Complicated, sophiscated is almost,.Non existent in JKD

[YouKnowWho]

At 0.53, he used a right Bong to deal with his opponent's right punch. That is wrong.

[Phil Redmond]

We all can't look alike and we all have different strengths and weaknesses. That's why I stay away from criticizing things I see in videos without understanding the whole picture. I have better things to do. I'm a former full contact competitor who had successfully used Wing Chun in the ring. If it doesn't work, I won't teach it. Back to "doing" Wing Chun.

[Phil Redmond]

The problem I was getting at was that in attempting to cover the arm on the way in, he fully extended his arm and was quite committed to following that arm back.

If suddenly a second punch comes, his response is to switch up everything entirely mid-action, including the direction he's moving.

Once body mass is already committed in one direction, with outstretched arms, it will be difficult to change footwork and everything to another direction in time.

Easy when done slowly and relaxed.



Not back away, but to the side away, which does give up distance.



If his lead foot is at the center point of the circle, and rear foot along the perimeter, as he steps his lead foot to the side, and slides his rear foot backward, the whole circle, his body mass, is actually being moved away from the opponent.



He's not pivoting and using rotational force, but stepping away with both feet, taking his body mass in the opposite direction of the straight punch. Meaning it's all arm.





Here's the 1-2.



Doesn't look awkward or difficult to attack from at all. It's a power stance with hips directed straight at him. It's more awkward for Phil to do anything from the position he put himself in, moving backward all duck footed waiting to be taken over.

If either of them are to kick, the attacker is the one with the better angle, stance, momentum, and obvious target to kick.

If the ideal is to get further around the opponent, well, it didn't even work too well in a slow demo.



What's to stop the opponent from taking advantage of it? He has not been affected in any way.

If he kept both hands up, they'd still at best be at equal advantage, or he'd be at more advantage.



He's either able to, or he isn't. And he is, so it's not really a matter of opinion.



But as we see, nothing has been done to set the opponent up. His facing, balance, arms, or anything has not been affected. He's able to continue just the same.



Which is obviously the main problem I have with it.

Opinions differ. Also, I actually teach students to stand in place while a partner wearing forearm pads throws full power round punches at them. It's not all arm. It's also stance. Anyone who has trained with me knows that. I don't believe I let myself be drawn into this by someone who has never met me in person to see/feel what I do. No disrespect intended.

[LFJ]

I actually teach students to stand in place while a partner wearing forearm pads throws full power round punches at them. It's not all arm. It's also stance.

Okay? That has nothing to do with your counter punch, which was done moving body mass in the opposite direction.