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Thread: Central Line Bong Sau vs. Center Line Bong Sau

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by KPM View Post
    What I don't understand is why you and LFJ feel the need to turn everything into an argument.
    Actually, I started my first post by saying "I just don't like how..."

    I think I'm allowed to express an opinion on an open forum.

    It became an "argument" when you tried to tell me and convince everyone else that something other than what is happening is being done in that video.

    a pre-determined opinion and a subconscious need to see anything that is different from WSLVT as being "wrong" or somehow "broken." Because there is a particularly clear example of that here.
    No one has mentioned WSLVT or said anything shown by Phil is wrong or broken.

    All I'm saying is "I just don't like how..." Has nothing to do with right or wrong or other systems.

  2. #62
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    It became an "argument" when you tried to tell me and convince everyone else that something other than what is happening is being done in that video.

    ---Actually no. It became an argument when you said: I always see this exact same footwork in any TWC video. If you watch the feet they are always stepping out and backward, where their heels point, while circling around. Lead foot out, rear foot back. Lead foot out, rear foot back. Round and round. Never forward into the opponent, leaving a big gap.

    ---You generalized to every TWC video you've ever seen. Then I posted two other TWC videos that clearly prove that your statement was wrong. But you continue to stick to your original conclusion no matter what. That is arguing just for argument's sake alone.


    No one has mentioned WSLVT or said anything shown by Phil is wrong or broken.

    ---Uh...Guy said: Why are you so keen to get people to share in your wrongness? And I pointed out that the response from you and Guy to see everything that is different from WSLVT as "wrong" or "broken" is likely some kind of subconscious thing. It doesn't have to be stated. It just seems to be the underlying theme whenever either of you are involved in any discussion.

    All I'm saying is "I just don't like how..." Has nothing to do with right or wrong or other systems.[/QUOTE]

    ---Ok, fine. Then why have you gone to such efforts to say what I have been describing is wrong??

  3. #63
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    Hello,

    I am not trying to stoke the fires but here is my take on what this thread has become:

    One person (names have been omitted to protect the innocent ) seems to be of the opinion that the clip shows someone stepping in a circular fashion and advancing slightly on their opponent.

    Someone superimposed a set of green and red lines to provide a reference in relation to the position of the feet as they transition.

    While the clip with the imposed lines would seem to show clearly that the feet do not advance but rather move to the side essentially along the same line, some continue to argue what appears to be clearly shown. The opponent does advance which lessens the distance.

    No one seems to be saying that the T Step cannot be effective or that it is wrong. Some have indicated they would not do it this way and that they do see some deficiencies which is why they would not use it.

    To me, it seems that this thread has become an argument about whether the step is circular or not and whether it advances or does more of a sidestep.

    To me it seems pretty obvious, based on the clip with the lines, that this represents more of a sidestep but that is only my opinion so take that for what it's worth, if worth anything at all.
    Peace,

    Dave

    http://www.sifuchowwingchun.com
    Wherever my opponent stands--they are in my space

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sihing73 View Post

    To me it seems pretty obvious, based on the clip with the lines, that this represents more of a sidestep but that is only my opinion so take that for what it's worth, if worth anything at all.
    Well yeah, it is a sidestep. Its just not a lateral step. I thought the second two clips I provided to clarify that fact showed it pretty clearly. And the first 10 seconds of the first clip shows that pretty clearly as well. LFJ just chose the least obvious example to draw his lines on. And recall, LFJ was referring to the T step in general. He said: I always see this exact same footwork in any TWC video. So I am talking about the T step in general as well and provided extra clips to clarify. So disregard that short section with the lines that LFJ created and look at the other examples. You don't see them advancing towards the opponent????
    Last edited by KPM; 03-27-2017 at 01:10 PM.

  5. #65
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    Moving into your opponent's side door has 3 advantages:

    1. His back hand can't reach you.
    2. His leading arm will jam his own back arm.
    3. If you attack his leading leg, no matter how he may step, his leading leg will always be in your attacking range.

    The question is in mirror stance (you have right leg forward while your opponent has left leg forward), when you try to move into your opponent's left side door (to your right), should you move your leading right leg first, or should you move your back left leg first? If you move your back leg first, you may cause a "cross stance" that will give your opponent a chance to sweep you, or run you down. IMO, it's better to move your leading leg first.
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 03-27-2017 at 01:32 PM.
    http://johnswang.com

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    Less opinion -> less argument
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  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by KPM View Post
    [B]---Uh...Guy said: Why are you so keen to get people to share in your wrongness? And I pointed out that the response from you and Guy to see everything that is different from WSLVT as "wrong" or "broken" is likely some kind of subconscious thing. It doesn't have to be stated. It just seems to be the underlying theme whenever either of you are involved in any discussion.
    The clip with Phil shows him taking a step to the side. You seem to be arguing against this observable factual thing that we can all see with our own eyes. It is in this respect that you are wrong. You seem keen for others to join you in this.

    I haven't given any opinion about TWC, or compared it to WSL VT, or said that TWC is wrong or broken. All I am saying is that you are claiming something happened in the video clip that actually didn't. That's all.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by guy b. View Post

    I haven't given any opinion about TWC, or compared it to WSL VT, or said that TWC is wrong or broken. All I am saying is that you are claiming something happened in the video clip that actually didn't. That's all.
    Did you bother to look at the other examples?

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by KPM View Post
    It became an argument when you said: I always see this exact same footwork in any TWC video. If you watch the feet they are always stepping out and backward, where their heels point, while circling around. Lead foot out, rear foot back. Lead foot out, rear foot back. Round and round. Never forward into the opponent, leaving a big gap.

    ---You generalized to every TWC video you've ever seen. Then I posted two other TWC videos that clearly prove that your statement was wrong.
    The other videos also leave a big gap while trying to move around the opponent.

    No one has mentioned WSLVT or said anything shown by Phil is wrong or broken.

    ---Uh...Guy said: Why are you so keen to get people to share in your wrongness? And I pointed out that the response from you and Guy to see everything that is different from WSLVT as "wrong" or "broken" is likely some kind of subconscious thing.
    As Guy just told you, he wasn't saying TWC is wrong, only that you are wrong about what's happening in the video. Still has nothing to do with WSLVT.

    All I'm saying is "I just don't like how..." Has nothing to do with right or wrong or other systems.

    ---Ok, fine. Then why have you gone to such efforts to say what I have been describing is wrong??
    It's your description that is wrong, not what you're describing.

    Quote Originally Posted by KPM View Post
    Well yeah, it is a sidestep. Its just not a lateral step.
    Side = lateral.

    I thought the second two clips I provided to clarify that fact showed it pretty clearly. And the first 10 seconds of the first clip shows that pretty clearly as well.
    So disregard that short section with the lines that LFJ created and look at the other examples. You don't see them advancing towards the opponent????
    Quote Originally Posted by KPM View Post
    Did you bother to look at the other examples?
    All irrelevant.

    That's what happens when your demo dummy just stands there and lets you walk around them.

    As soon as they are allowed freedom to move, they adjust direction when you take that first side step with the rear foot, then cut you off so you can't advance and you have to take another sidestep with the lead foot.

    Exactly what happened to Phil here against the 1-2, and the problem with this footwork. It moves away from the opponent and gives up space, allowing them to continue facing and pressing the attack while you're taking blind steps to the side/rear.

  9. #69
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    As Guy just told you, he wasn't saying TWC is wrong, only that you are wrong about what's happening in the video. Still has nothing to do with WSLVT.

    ---Still arguing??? I am not wrong about what is happening in the video. You just can't see it. You don't know TWC.


    Side = lateral.

    --A "sidestep" is not always purely lateral. And in the case of TWC, is hardly ever purely lateral.



    All irrelevant.

    ---All very relevant, given that you generalized your disagreement to include every TWC video you've ever seen!



    As soon as they are allowed freedom to move, they adjust direction when you take that first side step with the rear foot, then cut you off so you can't advance and you have to take another sidestep with the lead foot.


    ---But they are not allowed the freedom to move. That is why you maintain distance and don't move away. That is why you typically are still in contact with them to prevent them for turning back towards you. This was shown very well in the video of William Cheung.

    ---But why am I even bothering to respond to you? You don't care what I say. Your mind is already made up. You just want to argue. You've shown that time and time again.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by KPM View Post
    As Guy just told you, he wasn't saying TWC is wrong, only that you are wrong about what's happening in the video. Still has nothing to do with WSLVT.

    ---Still arguing??? I am not wrong about what is happening in the video. You just can't see it. You don't know TWC.
    We're past that. Just defending false charges now.

    All irrelevant.

    ---All very relevant, given that you generalized your disagreement to include every TWC video you've ever seen!
    And what I said applies equally to those videos, too.

    As soon as they are allowed freedom to move, they adjust direction when you take that first side step with the rear foot, then cut you off so you can't advance and you have to take another sidestep with the lead foot.


    ---But they are not allowed the freedom to move. That is why you maintain distance and don't move away. That is why you typically are still in contact with them to prevent them for turning back towards you. This was shown very well in the video of William Cheung.
    Right. The demo dummy in his video was not allowed to move while he stepped around him.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post


    Right. The demo dummy in his video was not allowed to move while he stepped around him.
    Yeah. Just like PB's demo dummy's aren't allowed to hit back!

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by KPM View Post
    Yeah. Just like PB's demo dummy's aren't allowed to hit back!
    I've never seen a video of PB walking around a guy doing 3 things to his posed punching arm before throwing the first counterstrike, all as part of a suggested free-fighting application.

    But of course, you are continuing to deflect.
    Last edited by LFJ; 03-28-2017 at 04:18 AM.

  13. #73
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    Enough already

    Guys,

    Enough of the senseless bickering.
    This thread is not about anyones ego.
    Let's simply agree that we do not agree and move on.
    If you wish to discuss something other than who sees what please do so.

    From this point onward any posts which simply continue the argument of who sees what will be deleted.
    Peace,

    Dave

    http://www.sifuchowwingchun.com
    Wherever my opponent stands--they are in my space

  14. #74
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    Okay, then, to get back to my point.

    The TWC method is to step out and circle around to the blindside, if possible. Call it a T-step or whatever, it maintains distance from the opponent by first stepping off to the side, away from them. This gives up space without physically affecting the opponent's ability to adjust with you in any way.

    As seen demonstrated by Cheung himself, his first reaction is to pull the rear foot backward, taking his body off to the side away from the opponent while intercepting the arm with a block.

    From there, he intends to step his front foot out and around, advancing to the blindside. However, at this point absolutely nothing prevents the opponent from chasing center and cutting this step off while continuing to press the attack with another strike.

    This would cause Cheung to have to sidestep again with the front foot, having crossed his legs and being unable to advance around the opponent, as happened to Phil in his clip. Having turned as he withdraws, the steps end up being blind steps to his own rear.



    But, of course, in order to pull this next step off, the demo dummy has to freeze. No more stepping, no more attacking.

    Cheung also makes 3 defensive actions on the posed punching arm and takes more steps before finally firing a return shot against this single punch.

    In reality, that arm will not be there after the first block, and the opponent won't just stand there. Another step and shot would be coming before Cheung takes his second step, interrupting this entire idea of getting around to the blindside like this.

    It reminds me of those fantasy vs reality knife defense videos. This of course being the fantasy application.


  15. #75
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