Central Line Bong Sau vs. Center Line Bong Sau

[KPM]

The TWC method is to step out and circle around to the blindside, if possible. Call it a T-step or whatever, it maintains distance from the opponent by first stepping off to the side, away from them. This gives up space without physically affecting the opponent's ability to adjust with you in any way.

---It does not. The initial part of the step is laterally...the rear foot moving behind the lead foot....but that does not involve moving back away from the opponent. The lead shoulder and hip actually rotate towards the opponent.


As seen demonstrated by Cheung himself, his first reaction is to pull the rear foot backward, taking his body off to the side away from the opponent while intercepting the arm with a block.

---Just watch your own slo mo. Cheung is not increasing the distance between himself and the opponent with his step. He is only moving backwards some because his opponent is advancing towards him. This maintains his distance with the opponent. Then he steps forward and towards the opponent with his counter-attack.



From there, he intends to step his front foot out and around, advancing to the blindside. However, at this point absolutely nothing prevents the opponent from chasing center and cutting this step off while continuing to press the attack with another strike.

---Wrong again. His Pak Sau on the opponent's elbow is what prevents the opponent from turning to re-face his center with another strike. He then does a Lop Sau that uses his opponent's own forward momentum to throw him off-balance which definitely makes re-facing difficult!




---Interesting how you have edited this to suit your own conclusion. You cut it just before Cheung did the Pak Sau on the opponent's elbow that prevents him from tracking Cheung's step.


But, of course, in order to pull this next step off, the demo dummy has to freeze. No more stepping, no more attacking.

---Watch the video! He froze for a second because this is teaching clip. But that makes no difference. It works just as well at speed as it does in "teaching mode." Mazza threw a committed punch and his forward momentum was still carrying him forward. This wouldn't work against a fast and uncommitted jab, but that's not what Mazza was doing. And then Cheung did the Pak Sau and a Lop Sau that off-balanced him and that kept him from turning or re-facing easily. Look how Mazza is bent forward. And Cheung has zoned away from the second punch. Of course you edited all of that out of your version of the video. Just watch the actual video again:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFLqbtmmSwU



Cheung also makes 3 defensive actions on the posed punching arm and takes more steps before finally firing a return shot against this single punch.

---Yes. There are more steps involved. But you trade a few more movements done quickly that put you in a much safer relationship with the opponent compared to fewer movements that leave you standing in front of the opponent and still dealing with both of his arms. Just different tactics.



In reality, that arm will not be there after the first block, and the opponent won't just stand there. Another step and shot would be coming before Cheung takes his second step, interrupting this entire idea of getting around to the blindside like this.


--You are wrong. The opponent simply doesn't have time to pull that off. He has forward momentum to deal with, Cheung has moved completely away from his other punching arm, and Cheung is pressing his elbow with his Pak Sau to encourage his momentum to carry him in the and original direction and even turn him a bit. Its all in the video for anyone that cares to actually try and see what is happening.

[KPM]

Guys,

Enough of the senseless bickering.
This thread is not about anyones ego.
Let's simply agree that we do not agree and move on.
If you wish to discuss something other than who sees what please do so.

From this point onward any posts which simply continue the argument of who sees what will be deleted.

Sorry Dave. I get frustrated dealing with these guys because I've banged my head against this wall before. I only continue to respond with the thought that others reading along with the thread may be paying attention and benefiting.

[LFJ]

The initial part of the step is laterally...the rear foot moving behind the lead foot....but that does not involve moving back away from the opponent. The lead shoulder and hip actually rotate towards the opponent.

He rotates slightly as he pulls away to the left of the screen, making the step to his own rear.

The rotation is not bringing him closer. His entire body is in fact being pulled away from the opponent.

Cheung is not increasing the distance between himself and the opponent with his step. He is only moving backwards some because his opponent is advancing towards him. This maintains his distance with the opponent.

So, he is moving backward. This gives up space allowing the opponent to remain at power striking range.

Then he steps forward and towards the opponent with his counter-attack.

Out and around. If it were towards the opponent, the distance would not be maintained.

From there, he intends to step his front foot out and around, advancing to the blindside. However, at this point absolutely nothing prevents the opponent from chasing center and cutting this step off while continuing to press the attack with another strike.

---Wrong again. His Pak Sau on the opponent's elbow is what prevents the opponent from turning to re-face his center with another strike. He then does a Lop Sau that uses his opponent's own forward momentum to throw him off-balance which definitely makes re-facing difficult!



---Interesting how you have edited this to suit your own conclusion. You cut it just before Cheung did the Pak Sau on the opponent's elbow that prevents him from tracking Cheung's step.

There is nothing preventing the opponent from retracting that punch and throwing another. Cheung blocks, and then immediately comes off it.

No one is going to hold their arm out for you to block it on one side, then step around and slap it a couple more times on the other side!

He froze for a second because this is teaching clip. But that makes no difference. It works just as well at speed as it does in "teaching mode."

That's what those guys in the fantasy knife defense videos think.

Mazza threw a committed punch and his forward momentum was still carrying him forward.

His step was actually pretty steady. The first block stopped the punch.

But nothing is to stop him from then stepping and punching with the next arm while retracting that one.

And then Cheung did the Pak Sau and a Lop Sau that off-balanced him and that kept him from turning or re-facing easily. Look how Mazza is bent forward. And Cheung has zoned away from the second punch. Of course you edited all of that out of your version of the video.

I highlighted the part where Cheung blocks and then comes completely off it.

There is absolutely nothing holding the guy's arm there while Cheung steps around it to slap it a couple more times before countering.

Cheung also makes 3 defensive actions on the posed punching arm and takes more steps before finally firing a return shot against this single punch.

---Yes. There are more steps involved. But you trade a few more movements done quickly that put you in a much safer relationship with the opponent compared to fewer movements that leave you standing in front of the opponent and still dealing with both of his arms. Just different tactics.

The problem, though, is that it requires the opponent to completely stop moving. If they take a second step and another punch, it cuts off this circle tactic, as happened to Phil, even in a demo!

In reality, that arm will not be there after the first block, and the opponent won't just stand there. Another step and shot would be coming before Cheung takes his second step, interrupting this entire idea of getting around to the blindside like this.

--You are wrong. The opponent simply doesn't have time to pull that off. He has forward momentum to deal with, Cheung has moved completely away from his other punching arm, and Cheung is pressing his elbow with his Pak Sau to encourage his momentum to carry him in the and original direction and even turn him a bit.

The opponent doesn't have time to throw a second punch, but Cheung has time to run around his arm blocking it on both sides with 3 moves before counterpunching??

The opponent was the first to move and only has the punch blocked, then freed. Nothing prevents him from throwing that right hand straight to center.

In reality, Cheung would not have the slightest chance of even getting around to his paak-sau step before meeting the second punch. That is pure fantasy. He would paak the air and get punched in the face.

I only continue to respond with the thought that others reading along with the thread may be paying attention and benefiting.

LMAO!

[KPM]

---As usual, you don't seem to be paying attention to what I am writing and I end up repeating my same points over and over.


So, he is moving backward. This gives up space allowing the opponent to remain at power striking range.

---He is moving backwards slightly only because the opponent is coming forwards. The step is flexible in that way.



Out and around. If it were towards the opponent, the distance would not be maintained.

---The distance is not maintained once he launches his counter-attack. He steps in and towards the opponent at this flank, closing the distance.



There is nothing preventing the opponent from retracting that punch and throwing another. Cheung blocks, and then immediately comes off it.

---Mazza' forward momentum of a committed punch prevents it, Cheung's positioning prevents it, Cheung's Pak to Lop prevents it. Are you paying attention?




The first block stopped the punch.

---Not really. Against a committed punch that first Biu Sau was meant to only slow it down and make contact. Cheung then briefly releases that contact as the momentum of the punch keeps coming so he can Pak the elbow on the other side. That takes only a split second. He wants the opponent to "punch through" so his momentum is still affecting him. If he had meant to actually stop that punch he would have used a different footwork.


But nothing is to stop him from then stepping and punching with the next arm while retracting that one.

---Already addressed above. I'm not going to keep repeating myself.





There is absolutely nothing holding the guy's arm there while Cheung steps around it to slap it a couple more times before countering.


--Again, already addressed above. You seem to be focusing on this aspect. You are wrong. And you are wrong because you have never trained TWC to experience how it works. You think you know it all from watching a few youtube clips. You don't. Sound familiar??



The problem, though, is that it requires the opponent to completely stop moving. If they take a second step and another punch, it cuts off this circle tactic, as happened to Phil, even in a demo!


---Already addressed above. And it didn't happen to Phil.



The opponent doesn't have time to throw a second punch, but Cheung has time to run around his arm blocking it on both sides with 3 moves before counterpunching??

----Yes. The opponent is off-balance and stretched forward. The momentum of his committed punch has carried through and actually been accentuated by Cheung's Lop Sau. Is that so hard to see???


---But I'm done trying to explain something to someone who is really not interested in undestanding how others do things. So you go on believing whatever you want!!!

[LFJ]

---He is moving backwards slightly only because the opponent is coming forwards. The step is flexible in that way.

It's actually a full step backward with his rear leg.

---The distance is not maintained once he launches his counter-attack. He steps in and towards the opponent at this flank, closing the distance.

The step is around to the outside of the opponent, not toward, and still leaves quite a gap.

There is nothing preventing the opponent from retracting that punch and throwing another. Cheung blocks, and then immediately comes off it.

---Mazza' forward momentum of a committed punch prevents it, Cheung's positioning prevents it, Cheung's Pak to Lop prevents it. Are you paying attention?

I'm paying attention, but I don't believe you.

Nobody throws a punch like that where they're falling over themselves and can't step or throw another.

Cheung's position after the punch has ended is still at power striking range and moving backward off to the side away from the opponent.

It is impossible for him to smack the same punch on one side of the arm, and then twice more on the other side as he steps around it.

If you believe it is possible, this shows your inexperience. You have never had someone punch at you before.

The first block stopped the punch.

---Not really. Against a committed punch that first Biu Sau was meant to only slow it down and make contact. Cheung then briefly releases that contact as the momentum of the punch keeps coming so he can Pak the elbow on the other side.

The punch stopped when it met his arm.

Either way, the biu sounds pointless. Why wish to slow it down and make contact, then let it go without having affected the opponent's ability to change?

Why not step out and let it pass, helping it along with the paak?

He wants the opponent to "punch through" so his momentum is still affecting him.

Then slowing it down would work against his goal.

There is absolutely nothing holding the guy's arm there while Cheung steps around it to slap it a couple more times before countering.

--Again, already addressed above. You seem to be focusing on this aspect. You are wrong. And you are wrong because you have never trained TWC to experience how it works. You think you know it all from watching a few youtube clips. You don't.

The TWC bit is not at all difficult to understand. It is just a fantasy application.

You're telling me the biu stuns the guy so he can't move anymore, or puts him into slow-motion as you dance around his frozen arm and do a couple more things to it while it's hanging out. Yeah right, buddy!

The problem, though, is that it requires the opponent to completely stop moving. If they take a second step and another punch, it cuts off this circle tactic, as happened to Phil, even in a demo!

---Already addressed above. And it didn't happen to Phil.

Phil didn't have the room to step forward around the guy, because the guy's second step and punch were redirected to chase him and cut his path off, as happens when you're fighting a live human.

The opponent doesn't have time to throw a second punch, but Cheung has time to run around his arm blocking it on both sides with 3 moves before counterpunching??

----Yes. The opponent is off-balance and stretched forward. The momentum of his committed punch has carried through and actually been accentuated by Cheung's Lop Sau. Is that so hard to see???

No. His step ended steady before the punch was finished. There was no momentum of a committed punch. Everything came to a halt.

He was also not at all off-balance or stretched forward until Cheung started pulling on his arm after he had been posing the punch for a minute allowing Cheung to walk around him.

---But I'm done trying to explain something to someone who is really not interested in undestanding how others do things.

I understand it perfectly. It's pretty straightforward. Anyone can see what he's doing. It is only that I don't believe it's realistic, because I know how people really punch.

[guy b.]

Even KPM can't believe in this frozen position stuff. Must be trolling

[zuti car]

The TWC bit is not at all difficult to understand. It is just a fantasy application.

This is a key point , TWC is designed to look attractive , like an art from old HK movies , there is no concept of body structure , no power generation , no principles , just countless application on the "blind side" .How TWC works in reality can be seen here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVXCftOuk2o
I don't want to post Cheung vs Turkish guy video , everyone seen that already

[KPM]

This is a key point , TWC is designed to look attractive , like an art from old HK movies , there is no concept of body structure , no power generation , no principles , just countless application on the "blind side" .How TWC works in reality can be seen here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVXCftOuk2o
I don't want to post Cheung vs Turkish guy video , everyone seen that already

Well, that's an odd thing to say. I learned plenty of principles when I studied TWC. Both "standard" principles common to all Wing Chun as well as some unique to TWC. Plenty of body structure and power generation as well. Makes me wonder what kind of "TWC" you studied!

Here is a clip of a TWC guy NOT getting knocked out:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WSCcj6PbLo&t=80s

And another:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrjID6IdxWk


And another:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtQdCuxuWXw

[LFJ]

Well, that's an odd thing to say. I learned plenty of principles when I studied TWC. Both "standard" principles common to all Wing Chun as well as some unique to TWC. Plenty of body structure and power generation as well. Makes me wonder what kind of "TWC" you studied!

Here is a clip of a TWC guy NOT getting knocked out:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WSCcj6PbLo&t=80s

And another:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrjID6IdxWk


And another:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtQdCuxuWXw

Almost 12 minutes of video, and not a single circle step or blindside was taken...!

The opponent in the 1st clip obviously had 0 experience.

Nothing TWC even appeared in the entire 5 minutes of the 2nd clip, besides his fighting pose a few times.

Again, no recognizable TWC in the last clip either.

This just shows that your circle step to the blindside strategy doesn't work in fighting.

[zuti car]

Well, that's an odd thing to say. I learned plenty of principles when I studied TWC. Both "standard" principles common to all Wing Chun as well as some unique to TWC. Plenty of body structure and power generation as well. Makes me wonder what kind of "TWC" you studied!

Here is a clip of a TWC guy NOT getting knocked out:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WSCcj6PbLo&t=80s

And another:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrjID6IdxWk


And another:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtQdCuxuWXw

I studied the original one . Maybe Cheung learned a thing or two in later years , but still, his forms , stances , chi sao... in his seminars when he just started teaching he was strongly against "modified" body structure , he simply did't know it and didn't understand it , his books and early seminars videos are the proof of that . His "prnciples" are not really that , his art is superficial at best and it is hardly can be considered as wing chun .

[KPM]

Almost 12 minutes of video, and not a single circle step or blindside was taken...!

The opponent in the 1st clip obviously had 0 experience.

Nothing TWC even appeared in the entire 5 minutes of the 2nd clip, besides his fighting pose a few times.

Again, no recognizable TWC in the last clip either.

This just shows that your circle step to the blindside strategy doesn't work in fighting.

How about you post some sparring clips of WSLVT, if you want to be so critical? Let's see all the Bong/Lop things from PB's demo dummy clips in a sparring situation! Heck, let's see ANYONE from WSLVT (other than Jai Harmon) winning a sparring match! Heck, let's see a clip of Jai Harmon actually doing something everyone would recognize as WSLVT!

And once again, you have just proven that you don't know what you are talking about. The guy in the last clip does a great job of maintaining his TWC structure. And he does do a quick short version of the T step several times! You either don't know what you are looking at, or you are ignoring it and still just arguing for argument's sake alone. Which is it???

[KPM]

I studied the original one . Maybe Cheung learned a thing or two in later years , but still, his forms , stances , chi sao... in his seminars when he just started teaching he was strongly against "modified" body structure , he simply did't know it and didn't understand it , his books and early seminars videos are the proof of that . His "prnciples" are not really that , his art is superficial at best and it is hardly can be considered as wing chun .

Well, I don't know what he was teaching early on and I don't know what you were taught. But I have all of his books as well as Eric Oram's book. They lay out Wing Chun principles pretty well and describe them as good as any other book on the market. I will admit that since I have an extensive background in other Wing Chun, I don't do TWC exactly like Cheung. I don't use the parallel feet YGKYM and I likely put more body dynamic for power generation into it than most TWC guys. As far as "hardly can be considered Wing Chun".....TWC is clearly just a variant. It still has lots of overlap with Ip Man Wing Chun and some of the mainland styles. In fact, it probably has more commonalities with Weng Chun than Ip Man Wing Chun does!

[LFJ]

How about you post some sparring clips of WSLVT, if you want to be so critical? Let's see all the Bong/Lop things from PB's demo dummy clips in a sparring situation! Heck, let's see ANYONE from WSLVT (other than Jai Harmon) winning a sparring match! Heck, let's see a clip of Jai Harmon actually doing something everyone would recognize as WSLVT!

That's an awful lot of deflecting!

Asking to see "Bong/Lop things" in sparring is retarded, and you've been told this.

But, maybe WSLVT sucks and no one can fight with it. Okay, that doesn't help your case for TWC tactics being realistic.

And once again, you have just proven that you don't know what you are talking about. The guy in the last clip does a great job of maintaining his TWC structure. And he does do a quick short version of the T step several times!

No, he doesn't. And even if he did so several times, he never once made it to the blindside in the whole match, so it failed miserably.

[zuti car]

Well, I don't know what he was teaching early on and I don't know what you were taught. But I have all of his books as well as Eric Oram's book. They lay out Wing Chun principles pretty well and describe them as good as any other book on the market. I will admit that since I have an extensive background in other Wing Chun, I don't do TWC exactly like Cheung. I don't use the parallel feet YGKYM and I likely put more body dynamic for power generation into it than most TWC guys. As far as "hardly can be considered Wing Chun".....TWC is clearly just a variant. It still has lots of overlap with Ip Man Wing Chun and some of the mainland styles. In fact, it probably has more commonalities with Weng Chun than Ip Man Wing Chun does!

I don't know who is that Eric guy but William's books , at least those early ones I had are insult to intelligence . His principles are superficial , not well explaind, he tires to make a connection to traditional chinese medicine and Taoism , uses too many words , like some one other erson we all know today to explain simplest things , repacking and renaming something all have and know very well. Everything he does in his books is talking crap about Leung Ting's WT constantly poining out how his system is superior .

[KPM]

No, he doesn't. And even if he did so several times, he never once made it to the blindside in the whole match, so it failed miserably.

He does. Not my fault if you don't know what you are looking at. And the T step is used for more than just going to the blindside. Showing that, once again, you don't know what you're talking about. You need to stop being so critical of something you know only from watching a few youtube clips.