pushing hands queries

[Kaitain(UK)]

Hi all, I have some questions on pushing hands - I'd appreciate your opinions.

1. Is it a fault to root and absorb your opponents energy? i.e. if I have the ward off posture is it a fault to allow my opponent to push against my structure if it isn't affecting me? I often absorb and root my opponents energy in order to force him to overextend himself - then I rotate and 'take away what my opponent believes is there'

As I understand it - CMC players view this as a fault and would yield away immediately. As I understand Yang style (my own) - it is not a fault and is part of the deception of taking away what your opponent believes is an opening. I'd love a CMC player to give his view - and a Chen stylists p.o.v would be good

2. Is it always possible to yield without stepping? For instance if someone pushes with both hands then it is not possible to rotate and yield - I realise you can sink backwards and draw them further forwards (An) but this doesn't always succeed. Opinions?

3. (relates to both of the above questions) Da Lu teaches yielding from Peng, using Lui to draw the opponents energy - then the opponent switches to his corner (shoulder press)as he feels overextended, and I use An (one arm) to absorb and repel his shoulder. Whereabouts is Ji in that sequence? I was under the impression that Da Lu teaches all four primary hands - does the attacker use Ji to push through the shoulder press ? I'm not sure where it is... I'll ask at training tonight but I'd like your take on it

"If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?"

[Repulsive Monkey]

It is possible to yield without stepping. The first part of Zhe-De Jin (Folding force) aborbs a push into the body sinks it in its yielding and then returns it back out again either slowly or fast(Fajin). I have witnessed people not move at all and soften the location of impact and return it frighteningly with great force.

[Kaitain(UK)]

in those circumstances I sometimes reach a point that I need to step because the nature of my opponents push has caused my to receive straight

"If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?"

[Water Dragon]

Question 1.In the Chen Man Ching styles, Push Hands is an exercise that develops your sensitivity. The goal is to never take energy head on. I have learned that there is never pushing or pulling in Tui Shou only yielding and following. What this develops is an ability (skill) to flow around your opponent and not take attacks full force. Ie, it helps you “meld” with the opponent.

The more traditional Yang systems use Tui Shou as an exercise in Peng. The goal is to find the opponents center and manipulate it without allowing them to get to your. I don’t do this style so I cannot comment on what skill is developed.

Neither is wrong, they serve different purposes. Do whatever you want to. Just make sure you understand why you are doing a particular exercise in a particular way.

Question 2. You simply have this one reversed if you’re doing what I think you are. Are you lifting your wrists up to take the pressure off as you sink down and back? If so, simply rotate to either side after you have yielded down and back. Ie, Sink THEN turn (rotate)

Question 3. As I understand it, the 8 energies are principles that are applied in combat. JI would be a constant pressure that you maintain in an attack. It is developed during freestyle push hands by emphasizing the concept of following. It theoretically can be used in Da Lu, but the emphasis of that exercise is to develop Shoulder, elbow, plucking, and rending. Again, the exercise can definitely change depending on the goals. As long as you understand Why you are doing it a particular way and what you are hoping to develop from it, it all becomes common sense and you’ll be fine.

You may take my life, but you will never take my Freedom

[HuangKaiVun]

Cheng Man Ching himself was known for his ability to root against incoming force, though to my knowledge he stuck strictly with receiving in push hands.


When I studied with Jiang Jianye (who knows a lot more about push hands than even HE realizes), his admonition to me was "Sink the hips, sink the hips!"

Jiang taught me to absorb and deflect two hand pressure by turning the hips and shoulders while spiralling off the push to the side with your own circular arm movement. This is the "Grasp Sparrows Tail" from Cheng's 37 posture form.

He also taught me how to lean into an opponent by splitting the push by closing it downwards (butterfly swim stroke) or by opening it outwards (breastroke swim motion). In both cases, your right arm would be on his the opponent's left arm and your left arm would be on your opponent's right arm. This is the "Beginning Posture" of Cheng's 37 posture form.

Jiang also taught me how to combine the above two techniques to "thread" through a push. Unfortunately, he didn't teach more push hands because there was no interest from his students and so I cannot help you any more.


3rd question: don't know because I've never seen Da Lu. I'm sure that Jiang knew it, but he wasn't the teacher for me and so I never learned it from him.

[bamboo_ leaf]

1. Is it a fault to root and absorb your opponents energy? i.e. if I have the ward off posture is it a fault to allow my opponent to push against my structure if it isn't affecting me?

I think yes and no. if he is allowed to push against your structure and you don’t move it would seem that you didn’t hear the intent of the push to begin with. If the other is pushing with LI (strenght) your peng can hold him off but if the other is using his intent YI and CHI it is already to late. He has found your center.

2. I often absorb and root my opponents energy in order to force him to overextend himself - then I rotate and 'take away what my opponent believes is there'
As I understand it - CMC players view this as a fault and would yield away immediately. As I understand Yang style (my own) - it is not a fault and is part of the deception of taking away what your opponent believes is an opening. I'd love a CMC player to give his view - and a Chen stylists p.o.v would be good

I played both Yang and CMC styles but for a long while I only practice the CMC style. This my viwe/ experience.
Not having good listing ability, allowing the other to feel and then turn, means that the other has lower skill then you. you are training your self not to really listen to his intent. The idea being to add to his force and direction.

3. Is it always possible to yield without stepping? For instance if someone pushes with both hands then it is not possible to rotate and yield - I realise you can sink backwards and draw them further forwards (An) but this doesn't always succeed. Opinions?

If you can move your center then there is nothing to push against. If you can hear the push before it starts then you can add to it. Or even let it bounce back into the other.The basic idea is to forget yourself and really follow the other. The lower the skill the longer the time it takes to follow and use their energy. The high level people use no force LI and very high listing / mindintent the touch is light. Did he push you or did you fall in and he added force as you jumped back. Non opposition.


4. (relates to both of the above questions) Da Lu teaches yielding from Peng, using Lui to draw the opponents energy - then the opponent switches to his corner (shoulder press)as he feels overextended, and I use An (one arm) to absorb and repel his shoulder. Whereabouts is Ji in that sequence? I was under the impression that Da Lu teaches all four primary hands - does the attacker use Ji to push through the shoulder press ? I'm not sure where it is... I'll ask at training tonight but I'd like your take on it

these are tech. Used to teach ideas. If you follow to closely what is free and open becomes restrictive and closed.
I have met people who have become locked into these patterns of movement.


These are things that I have found in my own practice, I hope they help
Good topic

return to the wheel of life, not ready yet

bamboo leaf

[Kevin Wallbridge]

What you are talking about in your first question is called "receiving force," and is a necessary requirement to sticking. It is an error to think that when energy is received in relaxed way that there is no force built up in the structure that ia formed by contact. There may be times when the the force that is received is so disconnected in its power that the opponent's balance is stolen simply by receiving. The danger is that you will be unable to conceal your own body behind the touch. To receive the force, stick to it and be able to conceal ourselves while remaining stuck is the basic study of push-hands. The single-hand push hands drill is all about this.

There will surely be some who will maintain that the touch should always be feather light (particularly Zheng Manqing stylists I've met have often maintained this), but I would argue that this is a relatively recent variant and not central to most Taijiquan teaching.

I hope that doesn't cause too much friction.

"The heart of the study of boxing is to have natural instinct resemble the dragon" Wang Xiangzai

[taijiquan_student]

The light touch approach is one way to use taiji. You can also be very heavy(of course, not "hard" or stiff). I think it's very limiting to only use one principle/method/strategy in your push hands or free fighting.

"Dui fang jing zhi meng ji, wo fang tui zhi ce fang xi zhi."

[Kaitain(UK)]

Some useful input there - especially on the reasoning behind the exercise in different styles

I train with a few WC people to build my sensitivity and listening - I never absorb and return their energy

When I train with my instructor I tend to yield more - he never gives me enough that I can absorb some of his energy to get him to overcommit (and subsequently chase him back :))

When I train with fellow students I absorb more because our skill levels are similiar - last night I made some great leaps of intuition as a result of thinking about what I really wanted to achieve in pushing hands.

WRT responses to a two-handed push - I realise that An is the standard way of preventing the push - the scenario I was giving was based on my opponent already having got contact to my body (i.e. I'd failed to keep him out of my circle). I suppose it is more sensible to work on preventing the failure than reacting to the damage.

I realised I was still receiving straight after reading Water Dragons post - I yield backwards with An and remove the pressure, but I fail to turn it to my advantage because I stay straight. Must try harder :)

"If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?"

[Kevin Wallbridge]

A little bit more on the Dalu. Its not actually intended to train the four sides (beng, lu, ji, an), rather it is about what happens when you lose the square and are trying to recover from the corner (cai, lie, zhou, kou).

If the opponent is too strong for you and their beng overpowers you then you can retreat and use cai (plucking) to draw them out. On the reverse if your beng is drawn out with a pluck then you use elbow or shoulder to substitute for ji and so recover the square.

The context of all of this is the drill known as four-hands. Its the sequence of beng-lu-ji-an as it played out between two people (my beng (ward) is neutralized by your lu (rollback), so I ji (squeeze) and then you an (press)). The idea is that if you understand the square then all of the most common possibilities of combat can be delt with using the four main energies. The corners make up for where your grasp or control of the square is lost due to an opponents skill.

"The heart of the study of boxing is to have natural instinct resemble the dragon" Wang Xiangzai

[Kaitain(UK)]

we stopped training Da Lu a while back and I forgot what it was for :) I was taught as a beginner so my implementation might be wrong as well.

my bad....

What confused me is that the pluck seems very similiar to Lui - could you explain the differences in the context of Da Lu? In Da Lu I have been trained to roll my hand out and grasp the wrist of my opponents peng - then I step back with the same side foot and step back. Waist then rotates and draws/pulls my opponent. He feels the loss of control and steps into me with elbow/shoulder - I use my free arm to absorb the pressure into my structure. Then we square up and join opposite arms in peng/peng and do it all again on the other side. Some clarification would really help.

Thanks

"If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?"

[honorisc]

Please pardon the break in flow.

""If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?"."

Nearly everyone is Happy. It's just that most people ignore their happiness. :-)

Very some such, perhaps might have been, likely say some, some not.

[GeneChing]

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