Application Based vs. Non-Application Based Wing Chun

[LFJ]

If your answer is always going to be "just go and study WSLVT if you really want to know"....then as I said in the other thread....it seems to be becoming clear that you really aren't here to share what you know about Wing Chun

Well, it wasn't always the answer.

It has always been the last resort answer to you, because you never understood any explanation.

This topic was explained to you in detail by 5 different people on this very forum 4 years ago.

Each one ended up having to suggest you go and find out in person,
because direct experience is apparently the only thing likely to get you there.

But you are so hung up on preconceptions of technique application that I'm not sure you aren't actually beyond help.

[wckf92]

Chase center. Don't chase arms.

Thank you 👍

[KPM]

Well, it wasn't always the answer.

It has always been the last resort answer to you, because you never understood any explanation.

This topic was explained to you in detail by 5 different people on this very forum 4 years ago.

Each one ended up having to suggest you go and find out in person,
because direct experience is apparently the only thing likely to get you there.

But you are so hung up on preconceptions of technique application that I'm not sure you aren't actually beyond help.

Still arguing? You took the time to do a search and look this up on the forum, but you can't take the time to participate in a discussion?

[KPM]

Having more than one technique to apply against a given attack doesn't make it non-application based.

It means you have even more possible application ideas for one given attack.

This is a reactive approach. A non-application based method is lat-sau-jik-chung / jeui ying bat jeui sau.

Every Wing Chun system I have studied has that Kuen Kit and uses it. So how are they still "application-based"? The whole definition of "arm chasing" is probably the most contentious topic in Wing Chun!

[LFJ]

Still arguing? You took the time to do a search and look this up on the forum, but you can't take the time to participate in a discussion?

No, and no. I just have a good memory.

You might do yourself a favor and look up the old conversations to see if you can make anything of them now, several years on.

The whole definition of "arm chasing" is probably the most contentious topic in Wing Chun!

That might be your problem then!

You will tell me this is not arm chasing or application-based thinking.

If you believe that, then there's no talking to you.

[LFJ]

So I see nothing wrong in a fighting method being rather simple and straight-forward. Its the "simple and straight-forward" that is going to work under pressure. Saying that a fighting method is "non-application" based just seems rather abstract to me. It doesn't really doesn't sound like something that is going to work very well under pressure in a real fighting situation.

This is an assessment from ignorance.

You don't understand something you also haven't observed or experienced.

So, you are not in any position to be able to assess the efficacy of the method, and your assessment is unjustified.

It sounds like you are frustrated at not being able to understand it, and personal grudge has led you to take a negative stance on it, as opposed to the only honest position you could take, which is to say "I don't know".

If you really want to know, but no amount of explanation is making sense to you, I'm sorry to say it again, but you'll have to go find out in person. It's really the last option for you.

[zuti car]

So you are saying you study a version of Wing Chun that doesn't drill techniques? Do you know of versions of Wing Chun that don't work on developing reflexes and keeping structure?


Pin Sun Wing Chun probably comes the closest to what you are describing. It doesn't use the standard 3 forms, but instead organizes the curriculum in a series of short forms or "San Sik" of around 3 moves each. These San Sik are practiced solo, on the dummy, and as a two-man drill with a partner and eventually in Chi Sau. The two-man drills are meant to really drive home how the technique or concept in the San Sik is applied or used. It is an efficient and quick way to teach a student all the basics. But this does not mean that Pin Sun doesn't also have underlying overall theories and concepts that inform and drive the techniques. It doesn't mean that when Pin Sun sees a given attack coming that it is always going to do X technique in response. Pin Sun uses the two man drills and Chi Sau to develop reflexes and good structure and also does sparring. I'm told the local Ku Lo Pin Sun schools in Shaping China regularly win the sparring tournaments in the area. So even though the beginning levels are very "application heavy" compared to other versions of Wing Chun, I don't think I would call even Pin Sun "application-based" Wing Chun.

I just don't see a very clear distinction between "application-based" and "non-application based." Maybe a lot of Chinese Martial Arts other than Wing Chun fit into the "application-based" category more clearly?

I do not kow anything about pin sun wck so I cannot comment , anyway , If you have to memorize a given set of movements as a response to an attack it is application based , like TWC , that is all they do . I do not practice any "techniques ' or aplications , nothing to memorize and drill memorized movements .

[KPM]

This is an assessment from ignorance.

You don't understand something you also haven't observed or experienced.

So, you are not in any position to be able to assess the efficacy of the method, and your assessment is unjustified.

It sounds like you are frustrated at not being able to understand it, and personal grudge has led you to take a negative stance on it, as opposed to the only honest position you could take, which is to say "I don't know".

If you really want to know, but no amount of explanation is making sense to you, I'm sorry to say it again, but you'll have to go find out in person. It's really the last option for you.

Ok. So can you provide video of it working in a fighting situation? That is what you asked of Phil. Can you provide it?

And I have already said "I don't know".....in the sense that I don't see the distinction you are making in such a hard-line fashion. It shouldn't be that hard to explain.

[KPM]

I do not kow anything about pin sun wck so I cannot comment , anyway , If you have to memorize a given set of movements as a response to an attack it is application based , like TWC , that is all they do . I do not practice any "techniques ' or aplications , nothing to memorize and drill memorized movements .

Is this drilling techniques? Is this "application based"?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZM1EcXTvQyo


How about this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cb9M4Onz6ys


Is Wong Shun Leung teaching applications of Siu Lim Tao here?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRAapB8g_XA


Is Wong Shun Leung showing applications of moves from Chum Kiu here?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2q8wgirkzgE&t=162s

[guy b.]

Ok. So can you provide video of it working in a fighting situation? That is what you asked of Phil. Can you provide it?

And I have already said "I don't know".....in the sense that I don't see the distinction you are making in such a hard-line fashion. It shouldn't be that hard to explain.

Your basic dishonesty is the problem KPM. It has been explained to you many, many times.

Unless you wake every morning with no memory of the previous day, you are lying again. When you do it that often people just get bored I'm afraid.

I guess if you want answers then stop trolling and someone might (might) take the time to run through it again. But if you are just clowning around with your silly political games again then I doubt anyone will. I certainly can't be bothered myself.

[KPM]

Your basic dishonesty is the problem KPM. It has been explained to you many, many times.

Unless you wake every morning with no memory of the previous day, you are lying again. When you do it that often people just get bored I'm afraid.

I guess if you want answers then stop trolling and someone might (might) take the time to run through it again. But if you are just clowning around with your silly political games again then I doubt anyone will. I certainly can't be bothered myself.

So now you are calling me a liar and a troll???? Look, I thought this would be a good topic for a discussion. So why are you not willing to discuss? Isn't that why you participate in the forum??? You guys are turning what could have been a productive and interesting discussion topic into another nasty exchange. Why do you do that???

It has not been explained "many many times." And it has never been explained satisfactorily or I wouldn't be asking to discuss. And there may be other people following the discussion (that's the whole purpose of an open forum) that might be interested in the topic that have never heard the WSLVT explanation themselves. So get off of your egotistical high horse and either participate in the discussion or just ignore the thread!

[guy b.]

If you want genuine answers then suggest you stop being a complete **** all of the time. Best of luck

[KPM]

I do not kow anything about pin sun wck so I cannot comment , anyway , If you have to memorize a given set of movements as a response to an attack it is application based , like TWC , that is all they do . I do not practice any "techniques ' or aplications , nothing to memorize and drill memorized movements .

I have never memorized a given set of movements as a response to a specific attack in TWC or any other Wing Chun method I have studied.

[KPM]

If you want genuine answers then suggest you stop being a complete **** all of the time. Best of luck

Really? Have I called anyone a liar and a troll here????

[zuti car]

Is this drilling techniques? Is this "application based"?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZM1EcXTvQyo


How about this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cb9M4Onz6ys


Is Wong Shun Leung teaching applications of Siu Lim Tao here?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRAapB8g_XA


Is Wong Shun Leung showing applications of moves from Chum Kiu here?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2q8wgirkzgE&t=162s

I was never taught any application in scwc , what see on these videos are very basic drills with a sole purpose to teach people proper mechanics of the movement ,it is not fighting application . In scwc applicaton are shown rarely , only to illustrate the principle but these applications are never memorized nor practiced in any way . What is WSL doing I cannot tell , I don't speak cantonese . What you do not understand is the fact that a style can be based on principles and those principles can be expressed and trained through applications ,these two things do not exclude eachother , take 99% of kung fu for example .