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Thread: Training

  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by dlcox View Post
    You concede that it has limitations (grappling, both ground & upright) yet state that there is nothing a VT fighter needs to adapt for fighting, unlike boxing.
    VT is a standup striking method that in fact needs no adaptation for free fighting.
    Adding something like BJJ for grappling would not change anything about the VT.

    For starters, prior to the use of mufflers and the Queensbury rules, boxing did have "Wrassling, hurling, gouging and purring", which made it fairly complete and competent in all ranges of fighting, it wasn't always relegated to sport competition. You two have stated that VT never contained grappling or throwing, yet view it as more complete than boxing, where's the proof?
    I never said VT is more complete, only more directly suited to free fighting.
    Obviously, if we're talking about boxing with fewer ring rules, this may change somewhat.

    All I see out of the VT camp is Chi Sau videos.
    Other things have been posted.

    Now you two have stated time and again that Chi Sau is not a method of fighting, that is is just a drill and that no applications are being used when performing it. Yet it is still constantly used to validate any claims you make.
    Is it? I have not used chi-sau to validate any claim I've made.

    Your views on VT are that it is a system of striking, a system of striking that hasn't been proven to be more effective than sport boxing on any platform, in fact just the opposite.
    Just the opposite, based on what data?

    The "Systematic" approach that you say VT has and boxing lacks is a baseless claim.
    Or you have not understood the statement.

    I have yet to see anything resembling what you call VT prove itself to be superior in any manner (technique wise, strategy wise, theory wise, or power generation wise) than any martial art, sport or street based.
    Don't think anyone made that claim, but have you even looked? Ever had any direct experience with VT?

    When the best evidence to your claims is a non-functional drilling exercise called Chi Sau, an exercise you claim not to be a method of fighting, where then is the real evidence that VT is systematically and theoretically more sound than anything, let alone boxing.
    Chi-sau has never been presented as evidence of anything. And again, this claim has not been made.

    Boxing is time tested and has proven itself again and again. It is because of its limited techniques and a strong strategy and theory that it is able to be made realistic and effective on a world stage. Can VT make the same claim?
    Well, for one, the number of VT practitioners in the world is extremely insignificant comparing to boxing.
    It is even a very small number in the greater Wing Chun world. And it is not made for sporting competition, so not to be expected.

    The way you and LFJ describe VT relegates it to little more than boxing IMO, argue that point if you like but it is moot.
    VT is Chinese street boxing. So?

    Your VT contains no grappling, you describe it as a method of striking which uses Chi Sau as a platform to develop the punch. It hasn't proven itself to be more effective than boxing despite this Chi Sau.
    Hasn't proven itself to whom? You and others who have no experience with it? Not my problem. Not VT's problem.

    Boxing doesn't need Chi Sau to work, why does VT?
    They function very differently.

    Seems to me that VT and boxing have much in common theoretically and strategically, with one exception, boxing has been proven to actually work.
    VT has been proven to work. It has proven to work for me. I frankly don't care if you believe it or not.

    Chi Sau is a method of hand chasing, try to argue that point.
    Depends on who does it and how.

    Its a method of defense that is either reactionary in nature or used offensively to impede an attack, either way it is focusing on the opponents limbs prior to attack.
    There are no opponents in chi-sau and it's not a method of attack or defense. This statement is nonsensical.

    This is why VT fails in real time under heavy pressure.
    Evidence of this? None, of course.

    It has not always been my experience, or that of other VT practitioners I know, so our own hands have proven this false to us, and again, I don't care if you believe it. I don't particularly care to convince anyone. I don't personally train to make VT famous or please anyone else.

    If your method is a method of striking why not develop and focus on drills that move the body away from an incoming attack and strike the target? It seems to me that boxing actually employs the strategies of simplicity, directness, & efficiency way better than VT in this aspect.
    Moving away is not direct. Why not focus on such drills? Because VT functions differently.

    I find it silly that a method of striking uses a complicated method of Patty Cake as a platform to develop actual striking, but feel free to argue its usefulness in that aspect.
    I would suggest you experience it and have it explained to you in person. You cannot accurately assess something you don't understand and have not experienced.

    Chi Sau has way more to do with grappling than it does striking, and are contradictory methodologies.
    You are not describing VT chi-sau.

    VT has not proven itself on any platform to be a superior methodology to any martial art, let alone to a "Sport" like boxing. Until you can prove otherwise, you can keep your Kool Aid.
    No one is making that claim or selling anything. If not interested, don't worry about it.

  2. #182
    Wow you two will spin anything to suit your narrative. It all comes down to this, boxing needs no adaptation, to be used in its current form, from ring to street. The methods and strategy are the same. What you fail to take into consideration is that in the ring you a fighting another boxer who will be employing similar strategies and tactics, and will also be on par with you physically. The approach in the ring is a different mentality than in a street fight. How you train and drill in VT is directly comparable. The feeling out process used in boxing (while) in the ring is a comparable analogy to how VT (and its various permutations) act when drilling. There is absolutely no proof that the VT process (strategy, tactic, techniques) works seamlessly from drill to fight. Boxing on the other hand has proven that theirs does. To say that boxing isn't cohesive from ring to street is an idiotic statement. Outside of grappling, Boxing is the only art to traverse all fields of combative sport (Boxing, Kickboxing, Sanda, MMA) to prove their methodology. Ving Tsun, Wing Chun etc, cannot, have not and will not until jokers like you stop spouting theoretical superiority and put up or shut up about the glory of your dirty river boat prostitute boxing. End of story.

  3. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by dlcox View Post
    Wow you two will spin anything to suit your narrative. It all comes down to this, boxing needs no adaptation, to be used in its current form, from ring to street. The methods and strategy are the same. What you fail to take into consideration is that in the ring you a fighting another boxer who will be employing similar strategies and tactics, and will also be on par with you physically. The approach in the ring is a different mentality than in a street fight. How you train and drill in VT is directly comparable. The feeling out process used in boxing (while) in the ring is a comparable analogy to how VT (and its various permutations) act when drilling. There is absolutely no proof that the VT process (strategy, tactic, techniques) works seamlessly from drill to fight. Boxing on the other hand has proven that theirs does. To say that boxing isn't cohesive from ring to street is an idiotic statement. Outside of grappling, Boxing is the only art to traverse all fields of combative sport (Boxing, Kickboxing, Sanda, MMA) to prove their methodology. Ving Tsun, Wing Chun etc, cannot, have not and will not until jokers like you stop spouting theoretical superiority and put up or shut up about the glory of your dirty river boat prostitute boxing. End of story.
    This is absolutely bang on.

    But theses two non fighting VT nerds wont get it, theyre too heavily invested in their way of thinking.

  4. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by dlcox View Post
    It all comes down to this, boxing needs no adaptation, to be used in its current form, from ring to street. The methods and strategy are the same
    Boxing needs no adaption. Ok glad you got your story straight

    The approach in the ring is a different mentality than in a street fight.
    Boxing does need adaption?

    The feeling out process used in boxing (while) in the ring is a comparable analogy to how VT (and its various permutations) act when drilling.
    You don't have a lot of experience of VT, do you?

    put up or shut up about the glory of your dirty river boat prostitute boxing. End of story.
    wow, lol

  5. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by GlennR View Post
    This is absolutely bang on
    On the contrary Glenn, it's so dense with error that nearly impossible to reply. Some parts almost need more than one reply per sentence due to frequency of VT ignorance combined with lack or reasoning ability. If you think this is bang on then you have problems.
    Last edited by guy b.; 04-17-2017 at 03:40 PM.

  6. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by guy b. View Post
    On the contrary Glenn, it's so dense with error that nearly impossible to reply. Some parts almost need more than one reply per sentence due to frequency of VT ignorance combined with lack or reasoning ability. If you think this is bang on then you have problems.
    Please, get off your high horse. Your & LFJ 's posts are so filled with divisiveness, prejudice & dogma I'd be surprised if your myopia hasn't turned you into a Cyclops. You constantly spout off how your WSLPBVT is the most cohesive and complete method around, without a bit of proof. You two are as bad as that Hendrick clown. I've been in WC for 25 years, been around the various lineages & offshoots and been in other arts for even longer. I have yet to see any branch of WC/VT outside of a few like, Allen Orr & Phil Redmond, actually put their interpretation to the test. 95% of the WC/VT world are nothing more than theoretical warriors spouting useless theory as proof of worth. Most branches of the system fall apart under pressure because they refuse to leave their safety bubble. There is nothing special or unique about the art aside from its structural rules. It's a specialty art created to help enhance understanding of refined movement, nothing more. There are much better and simpler arts that teach realistic fighting. There's a reason why arts like boxing and wrestling have flourished on the world stage in real fighting competition, and WC/VT has not. But by all means, continue to drink the kool aid and ramble on about how it's because only very few possess the "real" VT & the rest is watered down or broken without providing any actual proof outside your unrealistic theories & unsubstantiated claims. You two clowns hide behind your self perceived superior knowledge of all things VT, but never back up your claims and dismiss any real argument as fallacy. Let's see a video of either one of you sparring so that we can all be enlightened, let's see some fight footage of you against another art. You're so keen to point out other's inadequacies and lack of understanding, how about you defend footage of yourself. I bet it won't happen for two reasons, one there isn't any footage of either of you, theory is all you have, & two you wouldn't be able to defend yourself from the ensuing criticism. You're both just trolls and fanatics.
    Last edited by dlcox; 04-17-2017 at 05:13 PM.

  7. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by dlcox View Post
    Please, get off your high horse. Your & LFJ 's posts are so filled with divisiveness, prejudice & dogma I'd be surprised if your myopia hasn't turned you into a Cyclops.
    Wait a minute! I thought I was the "divisive" one!

  8. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by dlcox View Post
    Please, get off your high horse. Your & LFJ 's posts are so filled with divisiveness, prejudice & dogma I'd be surprised if your myopia hasn't turned you into a Cyclops. You constantly spout off how your WSLPBVT is the most cohesive and complete method around, without a bit of proof. You two are as bad as that Hendrick clown. I've been in WC for 25 years, been around the various lineages & offshoots and been in other arts for even longer. I have yet to see any branch of WC/VT outside of a few like, Allen Orr & Phil Redmond, actually put their interpretation to the test. 95% of the WC/VT world are nothing more than theoretical warriors spouting useless theory as proof of worth. Most branches of the system fall apart under pressure because they refuse to leave their safety bubble. There is nothing special or unique about the art aside from its structural rules. It's a specialty art created to help enhance understanding of refined movement, nothing more. There are much better and simpler arts that teach realistic fighting. There's a reason why arts like boxing and wrestling have flourished on the world stage in real fighting competition, and WC/VT has not. But by all means, continue to drink the kool aid and ramble on about how it's because only very few possess the "real" VT & the rest is watered down or broken without providing any actual proof outside your unrealistic theories & unsubstantiated claims. You two clowns hide behind your self perceived superior knowledge of all things VT, but never back up your claims and dismiss any real argument as fallacy. Let's see a video of either one of you sparring so that we can all be enlightened, let's see some fight footage of you against another art. You're so keen to point out other's inadequacies and lack of understanding, how about you defend footage of yourself. I bet it won't happen for two reasons, one there isn't any footage of either of you, theory is all you have, & two you wouldn't be able to defend yourself from the ensuing criticism. You're both just trolls and fanatics.
    Nicely put again, funny, i was actually thinking how much they reminded me of Hendrick.

  9. #189
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    I have no experience or directly knowledge of Barry's or his students' VT.

    Are you saying their VT didn't work?
    Not at all, im just saying that my did.

    What exactly are you asking for on a forum then?
    Hey, you blokes are bagging TWC, relegating boxing to a sport only and basically, by inference, making out that VT is "the real deal".
    Prove it.

  10. #190
    Quote Originally Posted by GlennR View Post
    Not at all, im just saying that my did.



    Hey, you blokes are bagging TWC, relegating boxing to a sport only and basically, by inference, making out that VT is "the real deal".
    Prove it.
    Won't happen, these two wankers are all about trying to prove everyone wrong with what they believe is superior knowledge of theory not actual use to back up their claims. They'll spin anything to suit their narrative. Because they have nothing else we'll have to endure 20 pages of how right they are, how everyone else is wrong, blah, blah, blah.

  11. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by dlcox View Post
    It all comes down to this, boxing needs no adaptation, to be used in its current form, from ring to street.
    Well, a typical cover defense without big gloves on either fighter and no rule against grappling is probably gonna cause you problems.
    As may bobbing and weaving if you get kneed or kicked in the dome, as well as your stance and footwork if leg kicks and grappling are possible.
    Not to mention some of your punching methods to avoid self-injury when bareknuckled.

    These are a few things you will need to adapt to safely face a more free fighter than another boxer.
    If you don't make adaptations to this approach, the risk is yours to take. Just hope your attacker is unskilled.

    The methods and strategy are the same...
    ...The approach in the ring is a different mentality than in a street fight.
    You are contradicting yourself.

    The feeling out process used in boxing (while) in the ring is a comparable analogy to how VT (and its various permutations) act when drilling.
    As guy said, your inexperience with VT is obvious. You are guessing here. Don't know why.

    There is absolutely no proof that the VT process (strategy, tactic, techniques) works seamlessly from drill to fight.
    The proof is in it's application, not in professional sports.

    If you are simply unwilling or unable to examine the evidence, you are not justified in saying there is none and should probably not worry about it.

    Outside of grappling, Boxing is the only art to traverse all fields of combative sport (Boxing, Kickboxing, Sanda, MMA) to prove their methodology. Ving Tsun, Wing Chun etc, cannot, have not and will not
    Boxing is a combative sport. So, that is to be expected.

    VT is not a combative sport. Those interested in combative sports are far more likely to train a combative sport like boxing than VT.

    So, I'm not sure what your point is.

    It is like saying a offroad pickup truck is useless because it hasn't proven itself on the Formula One circuit.

    until jokers like you stop spouting theoretical superiority and put up or shut up about the glory of your dirty river boat prostitute boxing. End of story.
    lol

  12. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by dlcox View Post
    I've been in WC for 25 years,
    Doing what?!

    I have yet to see any branch of WC/VT outside of a few like, Allen Orr & Phil Redmond, actually put their interpretation to the test.
    You haven't been paying much attention.

    There's a reason why arts like boxing and wrestling have flourished on the world stage in real fighting competition, and WC/VT has not.
    Obvious reason being the different focus.

    Let's see a video of either one of you sparring so that we can all be enlightened, let's see some fight footage of you against another art. You're so keen to point out other's inadequacies and lack of understanding, how about you defend footage of yourself. I bet it won't happen for two reasons, one there isn't any footage of either of you, theory is all you have, & two you wouldn't be able to defend yourself from the ensuing criticism. You're both just trolls and fanatics.
    Same could be said to the likes of you and Frost. Still waiting on the proof of his "excellent Bak Mei".
    He disappeared quickly once put to the same standards of evidence and criticism he holds against VT.

    You just seem angry that someone could still say VT is practical, after you've wasted 25 years on other WC.

    I suggest going to try your hand at VT, or just giving it up. You'll be happier not having to worry about what others do.

  13. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlennR View Post
    Not at all, im just saying that my did.
    So then, you're saying their VT did work. I mean, either it did or it didn't.

    Hey, you blokes are bagging TWC, relegating boxing to a sport only and basically, by inference, making out that VT is "the real deal".
    Prove it.
    Don't know what you mean by "the real deal". It works for me. Many other things work, too, including boxing styles though with obvious adaptations necessary for street application. It's no less "the real deal", whatever that is.

    You're still asking on a forum for proof that VT works, but want something other than words or video?

    You have just told me the VT of the guys you visited didn't at all not work... so? It sounds like you've seen your proof.

    I don't know anything about their VT, though. If you're just being diplomatic and they actually sucked, I would suggest if possible that you go to a good school in Europe. That is the home of VT today. If you are unable, then best to just forget about it.

  14. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    The proof is in it's application, not in professional sports.
    Uh....hold on here! I thought WSLVT didn't do any "applications"!!!!!

  15. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by KPM View Post
    Uh....hold on here! I thought WSLVT didn't do any "applications"!!!!!
    Correct. Putting VT to use, i.e. fighting, is not doing "applications".

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