Effective strategies against VT

[guy b.]

Name some effective strategies you have encoutered in sparring against non-VT people. We can then discuss what you might do to negate them (standup only). Assume VT working normally and no serous defects.

Some that I have seen:

1. Crashing in from distance. VT punches can be jammed and crashing in with a knee or low kick then grabbing on can be hard to deal with. e.g. vs MT or Kyokushin fighters

2. Hitting and moving. It can be hard to apply enough pressure and cut the way vs very mobile boxers due to speed and non-commitment to punches

Any others you have seen?

[Grumblegeezer]

Name some effective strategies you have encoutered in sparring against non-VT people. We can then discuss what you might do to negate them (standup only). Assume VT working normally and no serous defects.

Some that I have seen:

1. Crashing in from distance. VT punches can be jammed and crashing in with a knee or low kick then grabbing on can be hard to deal with. e.g. vs MT or Kyokushin fighters

2. Hitting and moving. It can be hard to apply enough pressure and cut the way vs very mobile boxers due to speed and non-commitment to punches

Any others you have seen?

Related to #1 above, someone who can set you up and then shoot a good takedown. Too many WC/VT fighters are head-hunters who leave their legs exposed. If they train against takedowns, they too often train against other 'chunners who can't shoot or grapple.

IMO this is totally rectifiable with training and experience.

[guy b.]

Related to #1 above, someone who can set you up and then shoot a good takedown. Too many WC/VT fighters are head-hunters who leave their legs exposed. If they train against takedowns, they too often train against other 'chunners who can't shoot or grapple.

IMO this is totally rectifiable with training and experience.

Yes shooting in although wanted to limit it to standup fighting really since this is where VT works.

Regarding crashing in the best option I have found is not to leave space and to be effective in chasing and cutting the way. Limit options, force reactions

[Grumblegeezer]

Yes shooting in although wanted to limit it to standup fighting really since this is where VT works.

Regarding crashing in the best option I have found is not to leave space and to be effective in chasing and cutting the way. Limit options, force reactions

VT works against grapplers too if you can use your standup game to shut down their grappling game. Limit options! Force reactions!!


Now can LFJ or somebody else come up with a Cantonese kuen kuit for that?

[KPM]

Name some effective strategies you have encoutered in sparring against non-VT people. We can then discuss what you might do to negate them (standup only). Assume VT working normally and no serous defects.

Some that I have seen:

1. Crashing in from distance. VT punches can be jammed and crashing in with a knee or low kick then grabbing on can be hard to deal with. e.g. vs MT or Kyokushin fighters

2. Hitting and moving. It can be hard to apply enough pressure and cut the way vs very mobile boxers due to speed and non-commitment to punches

Any others you have seen?

1. Someone that is good at sidestepping and using angles can time a chain-punching charge up the middle, turn the Wing Chun guy and attack his flank or take his back.

2. If you stand right in front of a good boxer and haven't shut him down yet, he can nail you from some unpredictable angles that are hard to stop. A good tight overhand shot can loop right over the top of an extended guard or punch. Or he can drop and weave to the side and dig in with a shovel hook just outside your peripheral vision. I learned that one the hard way!!!

3. A good fighter that has had a chance to "feel out" the Wing Chun guy will quickly see that most of the time all of the footwork is very linear and tends to go straight in. So he quickly learns to "bait" the Wing Chun guy and then use lateral footwork and angles to land shots.

4. A good boxer that knows how to work the clinch can quickly shut down that charging straight-blast and the fight becomes either an exchange of wild flailing shots, or the Wing Chun guy gets controlled and hammered in tight. One would think that this range would be Wing Chun's forte. But it seems too often that when it becomes a "grappling clinch" Wing Chun guys don't know what to do.

[Happy Tiger]

All these strategy are of value. However I suggest a very good way to beat VT is with VT itself. At its heart VT is a game of paper, rock,scissors. But the choices​ of composition and priority are indeed wide. The more a fighter is aware of, the more they can select a composition that cancles the other out.

[Grumblegeezer]

All these strategy are of value. However I suggest a very good way to beat VT is with VT itself. At its heart VT is a game of paper, rock,scissors. But the choices​ of composition and priority are indeed wide. The more a fighter is aware of, the more they can select a composition that cancles the other out.

This is true. the problem is finding other VT/WC/WT people to fight you. Heck, around here, even some of my former hing-dai won't even do chi-sau or spar with me (or other outsiders, infidels, apostates, and heretics).

I agree with KPM that getting an angle, especially to the outside is great. But that's also what boxers train. and they train it hard! As far as TWC goes, yeah, they work on that too, but from what little I've seen (on video, etc.) not all of them work at maintaining constant forward pressure. In some of the clips they actually create more distance. That has never worked well for me.

[Happy Tiger]

This is true. the problem is finding other VT/WC/WT people to fight you. Heck, around here, even some of my former hing-dai won't even do chi-sau or spar with me (or other outsiders, infidels, apostates, and heretics).

I agree with KPM that getting an angle, especially to the outside is great. But that's also what boxers train. and they train it hard! As far as TWC goes, yeah, they work on that too, but from what little I've seen (on video, etc.) not all of them work at maintaining constant forward pressure. In some of the clips they actually create more distance. That has never worked well for me.

agreed​. Luck of the Irish in my case.

[LFJ]

a chain-punching charge up the middle

If you stand right in front of a good boxer

most of the time all of the footwork is very linear and tends to go straight in.

that charging straight-blast

This describes poor Wing Chun devoid of strategy. Doesn't take much sophistication to defeat this.

[LFJ]

Name some effective strategies you have encoutered in sparring against non-VT people.

I have faced many different styles, and more than any particular strategy being most difficult to deal with, I find VT's effectiveness to be proportionate to assertiveness in the fight.

VT is really not suited to "friendly" sparring. If you dial back the aggressiveness to accommodate this type of exchange it will reduce the effectiveness of VT.

Where you would have knocked the opponent out, they are instead able to continue exchanging, causing you to change behaviors to what may not necessarily be in line with VT strategy.

It's particularly annoying when facing people who don't acknowledge when they would have been stopped, unless you actually stop them.

VT has worked best for me where I have not held back, worst when I have and forfeited the initiative to the opponent to work their strategy, whatever it was.

Whenever I have come away from an exchange not feeling great about my performance, it has been due to too low assertiveness.

[guy b.]

I have faced many different styles, and more than any particular strategy being most difficult to deal with, I find VT's effectiveness to be proportionate to assertiveness in the fight.

VT is really not suited to "friendly" sparring. If you dial back the aggressiveness to accommodate this type of exchange it will reduce the effectiveness of VT.

Where you would have knocked the opponent out, they are instead able to continue exchanging, causing you to change behaviors to what may not necessarily be in line with VT strategy.

It's particularly annoying when facing people who don't acknowledge when they would have been stopped, unless you actually stop them.

VT has worked best for me where I have not held back, worst when I have and forfeited the initiative to the opponent to work their strategy, whatever it was.

Whenever I have come away from an exchange not feeling great about my performance, it has been due to too low assertiveness.

Excellent point and highlights the danger of training a sparring mindset

[KPM]

This describes poor Wing Chun devoid of strategy. Doesn't take much sophistication to defeat this.

That describes just about every Wing Chun sparring, or training for sparring clip you will see (unless they look like they are kickboxing). Do you have one that does better? That describes a lot of the mistakes I have made personally after training in Ip Man Wing Chun. That describes many of the clips posted here recently on this forum.

[KPM]

VT is really not suited to "friendly" sparring. If you dial back the aggressiveness to accommodate this type of exchange it will reduce the effectiveness of VT.

---Yes. That is a good point.


Where you would have knocked the opponent out, they are instead able to continue exchanging, causing you to change behaviors to what may not necessarily be in line with VT strategy.

---But that statement may imply that your VT defense is not very good. If your strategy falls apart simply because the opponent didn't go down under your initial onslaught and is instead still fighting back, that may be a problem. And its hard to know what would have really knocked the opponent out, unless you actually knock them out. People have differing abilities to take a punch. In a real exchange you might think your blow would have knocked them out and discover that it only ****ed them off. So I think its better not to count on that.


VT has worked best for me where I have not held back, worst when I have and forfeited the initiative to the opponent to work their strategy, whatever it was.

---Again, someone could say this implies not having a very good defense. But then again, I think ANY martial art is going to work better if it has taken the initiative and is on the attack rather than defending.

[LFJ]

That describes just about every Wing Chun sparring, or training for sparring clip you will see (unless they look like they are kickboxing). Do you have one that does better? That describes a lot of the mistakes I have made personally after training in Ip Man Wing Chun. That describes many of the clips posted here recently on this forum.

Then why continue with Wing Chun? Personally, I would give it up for something better.

If you have better Wing Chun than what you described, I think that's what this thread is about; your best Wing Chun and what works best against it.

---But that statement may imply that your VT defense is not very good.

No. I didn't say I couldn't defend, but that defense like that is not necessarily in line with VT strategy.

IOW, that's not how VT is designed to work.

If your strategy falls apart simply because the opponent didn't go down under your initial onslaught and is instead still fighting back, that may be a problem.

I didn't say that. I'm talking about letting up because it is a "friendly spar".
This allows them to do things that otherwise would be shut down with "unfriendly" force.

And its hard to know what would have really knocked the opponent out, unless you actually knock them out. People have differing abilities to take a punch. In a real exchange you might think your blow would have knocked them out and discover that it only ****ed them off. So I think its better not to count on that.

I don't count on that. This just highlights the problem with a friendly spar and the negative effects it can have on VT.
In such an exchange, I'm not going to blast on them until they're out.

---Again, someone could say this implies not having a very good defense.

VT is not a defensive martial art. I didn't say I can't defend myself, though.
VT not working optimally as it should due to holding back does not mean I get beat up.

It just means I'm not using VT as it is intended and am sometimes forced to become too defensive because I'm being too friendly.

[LFJ]

In other words, KPM, this quote that you agreed with...

VT is really not suited to "friendly" sparring. If you dial back the aggressiveness to accommodate this type of exchange it will reduce the effectiveness of VT.

---Yes. That is a good point.

...is the same as these quotes where you blame poor defense, rather than dialled back aggressiveness you just agreed with.

Where you would have knocked the opponent out, they are instead able to continue exchanging, causing you to change behaviors to what may not necessarily be in line with VT strategy.

---But that statement may imply that your VT defense is not very good.

VT has worked best for me where I have not held back, worst when I have and forfeited the initiative to the opponent to work their strategy, whatever it was.

---Again, someone could say this implies not having a very good defense.