Effective strategies against VT

[LFJ]

In the heat of a fist fight, it is a bit optimistic to get all the way to someone's side and control them by their arm like that.

---If you are picturing a boxer darting in and out, then maybe. But "in the heat of a fist fight", plenty of people come charging straight in and it becomes relatively easy!

Circling all the way around to flank a reasonably skilled and uncooperative opponent so completely and keep them from turning back is probably nigh impossible, unless grappling; arm drag, body clinch.

---Not really. As you have said about WSLVT....if you have actually trained it you start to appreciate better how it can work.

Ehh, I don't know...

I haven't been through the curriculum, but I have seen it in person.
It's the same stuff shown in various Youtube clips, and not difficult to understand.

It's just a wonder with all the available fight clips why it's never been seen if it's "relatively easy".

Can you honestly say you have achieved full on perpendicular position to an uncooperative and skilled opponent by just stepping around them and doing something to their arm and kept them there while attacking? Or has it been at best more of a 45 degree angle for a moment?

If yes to the former, more power to you, but like I said, I'd love to see it, because no one else in available fight clips I'm aware of has managed to pull it off.

---But the same could be said of all the WSLVT clips. I haven't seen your version of flanking being used against an uncooperative skilled opponent either. Its always against a fellow VT student. At least in that earlier clip of Rahsun he was showing it against an actual boxer, even though the guy wasn't trying to stop him.

You just saw one. The guy is a 6'3", strong, skilled instructor in his own right and was not being cooperative. He was being properly shutdown.

The exchange was entirely different from what was shown with that boxer who, as you say, wasn't trying to stop him.

It doesn't matter what style someone usually does if they aren't trying.

And it doesn't matter what style someone is doing if they are trying.

Cutting in on one side or the other of the opponent's "triangle" is flanking, as opposed to fighting up the middle, point to point.

---As I pointed out before, that could be debated as you aren't really taking the flank by definition. But no big deal. I would call that "cutting the angle" rather than flanking. But as already noted, it is accomplishing similar things.

Call it what you like. The definition of "to flank" I'm using is to attack the sides, and that is what we're doing if you imagine an isosceles triangle pointing toward you. It doesn't have to be to the extreme left or right, but it is not at all up the middle.

[sanjuro_ronin]

As someone that has used boxing to fight VT guys: Angles and uppercuts.
As someone that has used MT and Kyokushin concepts to fight WT guys: Angled clinch and low kicks.

It is very easy to grapple WT guys that like to "trap" and "clinch", for obvious reasons.

[KPM]

Here is a clip of Phil Redmond explaining some of the angling used against a boxer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0E7erSZMxA

[KPM]

It's just a wonder with all the available fight clips why it's never been seen if it's "relatively easy".

---Same could be said of what you are describing. Oh wait....there are no fight clips!


Can you honestly say you have achieved full on perpendicular position to an uncooperative and skilled opponent by just stepping around them and doing something to their arm and kept them there while attacking? Or has it been at best more of a 45 degree angle for a moment?

---Well yeah! I guess "skilled" is a relative term and in the "eye of the beholder", but yeah. If you have good footwork, when someone comes charging towards you it is relatively easy to step off of the line and flank them. Somewhat harder when that same person realizes this is a vulnerability and then doesn't comment to a forward pressing attack nearly as much.



You just saw one. The guy is a 6'3", strong, skilled instructor in his own right and was not being cooperative. He was being properly shutdown.

---That's not how it looked to me. He sure looked like he was being somewhat "cooperative." At one point Kurth actually backed off to give him the chance to press the initiative, like they were taking turns being the "winner."

[guy b.]

Same could be said of what you are describing. Oh wait....there are no fight clips!

It is a policy in PBWSL VT not to release fight clips. There is nothing stopping anyone from showing up and trying.

For a group that does release lots and lots of fight clips like TWC, it is unusual that a core tactical approach (maybe THE core tactical approach) is lacking from those fight clips.

Well yeah! I guess "skilled" is a relative term and in the "eye of the beholder", but yeah. If you have good footwork, when someone comes charging towards you it is relatively easy to step off of the line and flank them. Somewhat harder when that same person realizes this is a vulnerability and then doesn't comment to a forward pressing attack nearly as much

Against an aware opponent I think only possible while grabbing clothes, eg as in some types of karate. Unless you are super humanly fast.

That's not how it looked to me. He sure looked like he was being somewhat "cooperative." At one point Kurth actually backed off to give him the chance to press the initiative, like they were taking turns being the "winner."

Try and get there to train! I am sure it would be a good experience

[Sean66]

Cutting off your opponent is difficult, and has to be "earned". That is why it is so central to our training.
In this video there are some good shots of Michael and Kai "cutting the way" in training and sparring.

[KPM]

Cutting off your opponent is difficult, and has to be "earned". That is why it is so central to our training.
In this video there are some good shots of Michael and Kai "cutting the way" in training and sparring.

Good clip Sean! And I think "cutting the way" is a better description than "flanking" for what is happening in that video. But again, like the other videos there was really no "uncooperative" exchanges happening there. But good training nonetheless!

[KPM]

It is a policy in PBWSL VT not to release fight clips.

Why is that? That just seems strange, and counterproductive. If you are doing good and effective things in sparring, why wouldn't you want people to know that and see that?? Doesn't PB realize he is putting you guys in a bad position? You go out all enthusiastic about your training, make big claims for how great it is, but can't show anything to back up all your big talk. That just makes his lineage look bad in the end. I guess he doesn't realize that???

[dlcox]

Why is that? That just seems strange, and counterproductive. If you are doing good and effective things in sparring, why wouldn't you want people to know that and see that?? Doesn't PB realize he is putting you guys in a bad position? You go out all enthusiastic about your training, make big claims for how great it is, but can't show anything to back up all your big talk. That just makes his lineage look bad in the end. I guess he doesn't realize that???

If any ever do get out they will probably have "intentional errors" anyways.

[Happy Tiger]

If any ever do get out they will probably have "intentional errors" anyways.

, I have found some,... mabey many VT fighters to have glass jaws. Usually owing to a lack of real combat experience I recone. VT fighters spend too much time trying not to get hit in it's intricate technical voracity.l. Not realistic or likely in any kind of real fighting. If you are afraid of being hit hard, you've probably lost the fight already. Plus ,if you have the chin of a VT fighter under control you can pin them like a turtle. Meaning to actually have a hold of their face, understand?( just don't get bit, that happened to me once)... there is a science of physics demonstrated in combat that has 'uncertanty,' this is sub atomic law that.can help you or **** you as you wish for I'm

[Happy Tiger]

I'm not criticizing but sometimes ya'll spend too much time dancing around technical issue. Were the meat of the problem is elsewhere.and I suggest this as a humble student.

[Happy Tiger]

I'm not criticizing but sometimes ya'll spend too much time dancing around technical issue. Were the meat of the problem is elsewhere.and I suggest this as a humble student.

my wife had said I can't write any more.

[QUOTE=Happy Tiger;1302217], I have found some,... mabey many VT fighters to have glass jaws. Usually owing to a lack of real combat experience I recone. VT fighters spend too much time trying not to get hit in it's intricate technical voracity.l. Not realistic or likely in any kind of real fighting. If you are afraid of being hit hard, you've probably lost the fight already. Plus ,if you have the chin of a VT fighter under control you can pin them like a turtle. Meaning to actually have a hold of their face, understand?( just don't get bit, that happened to me once)... there is a science of physics demonstrated in combat that has 'uncertanty,' this is sub atomic law that.can help you or **** you as you wishQUOTE]

[Happy Tiger]

, I have found some,... mabey many VT fighters to have glass jaws. Usually owing to a lack of real combat experience I recone. VT fighters spend too much time trying not to get hit in it's intricate technical voracity.l. Not realistic or likely in any kind of real fighting. If you are afraid of being hit hard, you've probably lost the fight already. Plus ,if you have the chin of a VT fighter under control you can pin them like a turtle. Meaning to actually have a hold of their face, understand?( just don't get bit, that happened to me once)... there is a science of physics demonstrated in combat that has 'uncertanty,' this is sub atomic law that.can help you or **** you as you wish for I'm

Wing Chun fighters are way to dedicated too structure. Considering their structure is usuallyually crap.

[LFJ]

---Well yeah! I guess "skilled" is a relative term and in the "eye of the beholder", but yeah. If you have good footwork, when someone comes charging towards you it is relatively easy to step off of the line and flank them.

Probably not something a skilled opponent would do. Only an angry idiot would come charging in like a bull and run right past you when you step off line.

---That's not how it looked to me. He sure looked like he was being somewhat "cooperative." At one point Kurth actually backed off to give him the chance to press the initiative, like they were taking turns being the "winner."

Exactly how it's supposed to appear!

As I said, a skilled VT practitioner will completely shutdown the other, making it perhaps seem as if the other person is not trying, but it is not for lack of trying that they end up looking that way!

Backing off is resetting, then reapplying the pressure.

I think "cutting the way" is a better description than "flanking" for what is happening in that video.

Cutting the way is tactics for achieving flank, which doesn't have to be extreme left or right, as that is not likely in a fist fight without grappling, certainly not by just stepping off line and doing a 3 stage attack on the one arm.

But again, like the other videos there was really no "uncooperative" exchanges happening there.

There are obvious cooperative parts, and other parts where the only cooperative thing about it is that they are wilfully engaging in VT drills together, but again you are then seeing people being shutdown effectively, not "cooperating". Not to mention the sparring bits.

Why is that? That just seems strange, and counterproductive. If you are doing good and effective things in sparring, why wouldn't you want people to know that and see that??

Probably doesn't care. He's not in it for the money or quantity of students. If someone is genuinely interested, they will make the effort to go check it out and probably end up being a more quality student than the critics who just stay at home or keep doing what they do.

There are also a ton of parasites who like to copy things without knowing better and ruin the system. Better to only show things outsiders can guess about but will get wrong unless they actually come and train. The doors are always open.

You may disagree with this approach, but I'm sure no one cares. In a way, it's quality control.

[Happy Tiger]

Good to have a response