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Thread: Xu Xiaodong Challenges to Kung Fu

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by wiz cool c View Post
    There is a whole lot of fantasy going on in the Chinese martial art world. first off any kung fu guy willing to fight a match[not friendly training] against a young MMA competitor should obviously be a young competitor himself. for example a Sanda fighter. That and in this day and age still to be completely unaware of a ground game it's unbelievable. If you still have no clue that these guys train hard and are very skilled fighters, specially in a competitive environment, than that right there proves your "cluelessness".

    This cluelessness goes above and beyond simple fighting in the Chinese arts. there are still people out there that believe you have to be of Asian decent to be a kung fu teacher/expert..... kung fu has been around what since the 70s in the states. it is ten times easier to find a good kung fu instructor in new York city than it is in most Chinese big cities. then there are those that think only Asians know the true secrets. I bet this tai chi guy thought he knew a bunch of secrets and played master on his students demoing little simple applications, like they are the end all be all of fighting. in my experience many of the Chinese teacher's have strong foundations and basics are very good, also are good at applying power, but usually lack real life fighting experience. where the western kung fu instructors grow up in a more hostile environment and have more fighting knowledge and experience.

    One more point on this cluelessness in fighting and reality topic. I believe this stems back to Chinese politics and social order. the communist government personally keeps people stupid. for example blocking social media, regulating tv programs and religion, strictly controlling what students learn in school. You can see this tai chi MASTER,is still pre ufc 1993 state of mind. the MMA guys on the other hand have outside influence, and are free thinkers because they train in a system that learned form systems with roots outside of china.
    I've long felt that having a solid background in non-CMA prior to taking up kung fu is a big advantage. The vast majority of kung fu people I've personally known who really excelled at actually fighting with kung fu against all types of opponents already had extensive experience in other arts/methods: judo, various styles of karate; boxing, kickboxing/MT, etc. There was already an extensive foundation of sparring or fighting in place.

    The article in the link below is long, but I thought it might be relevant to this thread. I WILL point out that, although some things are very true and/or quite plausible, a lot of it is presumptuous nonsense. In fact, I have never read an article with such a bizarre combination of truths, half-truths and utter BS.

    https://www.quora.com/Why-are-Chines...ot-used-in-MMA

    First off, I'll mention some of what the article says that I know are BS:

    1. Mas Oyama beat every karate master in Japan. FALSE. His own top student, John Bluming, even stated that Mas Oyama himself probably never had a fight in his life. And as for his fighting bulls, I'd have liked to have seen him fight a real fighting bull, like the Matadors face. Of course, he would have been gored to death in seconds.

    2. Of all the CMA, only Wing Chun was effective against other styles. Total bull****. The author is obviously a Bruce Lee/Ip Man worshipper. He either ignores or is unaware of the fact that CLF has stepped up and been proven effective in various formats, including against Muay Thai. Maybe not in MMA yet, but CLF fighters have put themselves out there for decades. But obviously, those who did trained to fight competitively with it.

    Related to No. 2: Wing Chun can be used to easily beat up karate or TKD guys. Depends on the individuals. I've seen many examples to the contrary.

    3. Chinese parents are proud and happy for their kids to learn traditional kung fu (Wing Chun, etc.) but equate fighting sports like MMA with gangsterism. When I lived in Taiwan, many kids' parents equated traditional kung fu with gangsterism, and preferred them to study Taekwondo, kendo, etc., considering the latter to be cleaner, more professional, and more wholesome.

    4. "We need yellow pride, holmes". Where does this guy come off saying 'we'? The author's name is Kenneth Ketchum, and from the photo he's a black guy. It's not his or anyone else's place to tell members of another racial group how they feel (or should act or feel). Plus, he continually says "Asians" when he's referring specifically to Chinese.

    5. All Chinese, all Koreans, and all Japanese are the same as each other within their own nationalities. What a crock of sh!t. That's like saying all Italians are shorter and have better muscle definition than all Germans, and that all English are prissy and sit around drinking tea with their pinky finger sticking up. But for some reason people allow for the fact that Europeans are distinct individuals, not walking stereotypes off an assembly line.

    Like I said, some things in the article are pretty much spot on, but there's a load of BS to sift through as well. Many people who don't know the difference will probably take it all as gospel.
    Last edited by Jimbo; 05-01-2017 at 09:54 AM.

  2. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by diego View Post
    To me it is all marketing bullsh*t like Mike Tyson in his prime against two Mike Tysons would look like the tai chi vs mma video lol.

    The conditioning of the master even if he had the moves of the mma guy he looked like he has a weak back compared to the mma guy like a twenty year old Tyson running doing leg work six hours a day would dummy a fat fifty year old current Tyson.

    A big thing between an eight year student of mma vs a kata student is the kung fu guy spends four years on staff and sword, etc which the fake kung fu hippy guys on youtube dont do like Mcdojo schools they never build the proper foundation and strength from weapons training and the good kung fu guys spend four years on kata basics with four years weapons foundation training while the Muay Thai guy does three years shadow boxing and four years cardio and sparring.

    Also I think before the days of pirates and guns lol good martial soldiers for hire would train weapons for ten years twelve hours a day before being employable nowadays people are lucky to train twice a week.
    I study and love kung fu like most of us here do, but sooner or later you got to call bull****. I don't blame this MMA guy he didn't go to the Tai chi guys school and challenge him. this tai chi guy was so delusional he actually thought he could fight without ever practicing fighting. I had a little incident yesterday. I have been at my Shifu's school for over a year and a half. been doing this style for several years in my previous city, and doing martial arts for decades before that. so recently[last two months] my Shifu's kung fu brother has been at the school and he brings along this young like 18 maybe 20 year old guy who severed in the Chinese military. his training is a bit in Sanda and qin na. seems his skills are at least decent. but not a whole lot of realistic experience. so recently the kung fu uncle has been getting more involved with teaching some different skills to my Shifu's students. so yesterday during the pad hitting class, my Shifu's kung fu brother is teaching some basic Sanda skills. the young guy is also walking around acting like a teacher and basically showing off to the younger students.

    so at one point the young guy starts trying to teach me some basic punch I learned over 20 years ago. and last weekend he was trying to do some nonsense demo stuff with me. so the whole class is watching now and I lost it. I punched him in the jaw[lightly] while he was TEACHING me. he doesn't. he doesn't try blocking or move, lets out a kind of stunned laugh. he goes on continuing trying to teach me some basic move I learned before he was alive on this earth. and I do it again punch him on the jaw with my other hand. he didn't even prepare for something[I would if this happened to me] so he just continues to run his mouth and I tap his groin with a front instep kick. through all this he never used footwork, tried blocking or defending himself. yet he is teaching me Sanda.

    then my Shifu's kung fu brother come up to me later when I'm doing a kicking combination, he starts off with no and shaking his head[here we go,im thinking] he is going to reteach me how to do a round house kick. something I learn thirty years ago. I just couldn't do the whole let me be quiet and pretend I don't know how to do this and let him be the MASTER. I told him in Chinese[I'm tired, I had knee surgery before, and I don't want to give my body any problem].

    The funny thing is at 46 and with reconstructive knee surgery, I still train everyday, about two hours. sometimes in the yard by myself sometimes with the kids. The Kung fu uncle and his young apprentice never train. I have never seen either of them train or sweat.
    Last edited by wiz cool c; 05-01-2017 at 07:02 PM.

  3. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    I've long felt that having a solid background in non-CMA prior to taking up kung fu is a big advantage. The vast majority of kung fu people I've personally known who really excelled at actually fighting with kung fu against all types of opponents already had extensive experience in other arts/methods: judo, various styles of karate; boxing, kickboxing/MT, etc. There was already an extensive foundation of sparring or fighting in place.
    yeah I am sorry to say that has been my experience too. if people trained correctly though that wouldn't be necessary. I wrote an article about this recently yet to be published.

  4. #19
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    Xu has set this situation up so its a loss for Taiji whatever. The young Chen village guys train Sanda, which Xu is saying is not valid, as even if they win they arent using Taiji to fight him.

    My hope is this whole thing will drag CMA out of the hole its dug itself into. Just yesterday was training in the park with Rendahai, and a guy in beautiful white silks turned up next to us, a crowd surrounded him with camera phones while he did some little tricks having people grab his write... all the while looking really smug and full of himself.

    As Lei Lei discovered, getting punched in the face by someone really wanting to hurt you is very different to doing Push Hands in the park. What I think he should have done was stand his ground, cover his head and meet the force head on. That would have allowed them to go into close enough range for him to at least attempt his Push Hands stuff. If I get overwhelmed in sparring, my general reaction is to do this, and then stick to the opponents arms so I can limit his attacks and gain some control over him.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post

    2. Of all the CMA, only Wing Chun was effective against other styles. Total bull****. The author is obviously a Bruce Lee/Ip Man worshipper. He either ignores or is unaware of the fact that CLF has stepped up and been proven effective in various formats, including against Muay Thai. Maybe not in MMA yet, but CLF fighters have put themselves out there for decades. But obviously, those who did trained to fight competitively with it.

    Related to No. 2: Wing Chun can be used to easily beat up karate or TKD guys. Depends on the individuals. I've seen many examples to the contrary.

    3. Chinese parents are proud and happy for their kids to learn traditional kung fu (Wing Chun, etc.) but equate fighting sports like MMA with gangsterism. When I lived in Taiwan, many kids' parents equated traditional kung fu with gangsterism, and preferred them to study Taekwondo, kendo, etc., considering the latter to be cleaner, more professional, and more wholesome.
    In mainland, any sort of combat sports or MA are considered for poor rural kids. TKD is about the only one parents would let their kids near. Theyd rather their kids learn English, Maths or Piano.

    I dont get the whole attitude that Wing Chun is the only effective CMA. To me, northern styles like Mantis, Tongbei, Baji, Xinyi Liuhe, old Shaolin etc are much more aggressive and can easily be adapted to ring-fighting mor than WC.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    I've long felt that having a solid background in non-CMA prior to taking up kung fu is a big advantage. The vast majority of kung fu people I've personally known who really excelled at actually fighting with kung fu against all types of opponents already had extensive experience in other arts/methods: judo, various styles of karate; boxing, kickboxing/MT, etc. There was already an extensive foundation of sparring or fighting in place.
    Yup, what Jimbo wrote I had come to the same conclusion. Whenever I heard stories of a Tai Chi guy who could fight, he also had HARD style training when he was younger. I.e. usually not just Tai Chi alone. It was sometimes met with opposition...dang Tai chi almightyists!!!

    I have written on other forums in the past and others have said before me that: Tai Chi makes whatever or other art you do = Better.
    http://cykwoon.freewebspace.com/
    https://www.youtube.com/user/Subitai

    "O"..."Some people believe that you need to make another human being tap out to be a valid art. But I am constantly reminding them that I only have to defend myself and keep you from hurting me in order to Win."
    "O"..."The Hung Style practiced solely in methods of Antiquity would ultimately only be useful versus Similar skill sets"

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Subitai View Post
    Yup, what Jimbo wrote I had come to the same conclusion. Whenever I heard stories of a Tai Chi guy who could fight, he also had HARD style training when he was younger. I.e. usually not just Tai Chi alone. It was sometimes met with opposition...dang Tai chi almightyists!!!

    I have written on other forums in the past and others have said before me that: Tai Chi makes whatever or other art you do = Better.
    The only Taiji teacher Ive met who could fight, had a strong background in Sanda, Shuai Jiao, Chinese police MA and Xinyi Liuhe.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by wiz cool c View Post
    I study and love kung fu like most of us here do, but sooner or later you got to call bull****. I don't blame this MMA guy he didn't go to the Tai chi guys school and challenge him. this tai chi guy was so delusional he actually thought he could fight without ever practicing fighting. I had a little incident yesterday. I have been at my Shifu's school for over a year and a half. been doing this style for several years in my previous city, and doing martial arts for decades before that. so recently[last two months] my Shifu's kung fu brother has been at the school and he brings along this young like 18 maybe 20 year old guy who severed in the Chinese military. his training is a bit in Sanda and qin na. seems his skills are at least decent. but not a whole lot of realistic experience. so recently the kung fu uncle has been getting more involved with teaching some different skills to my Shifu's students. so yesterday during the pad hitting class, my Shifu's kung fu brother is teaching some basic Sanda skills. the young guy is also walking around acting like a teacher and basically showing off to the younger students.

    so at one point the young guy starts trying to teach me some basic punch I learned over 20 years ago. and last weekend he was trying to do some nonsense demo stuff with me. so the whole class is watching now and I lost it. I punched him in the jaw[lightly] while he was TEACHING me. he doesn't. he doesn't try blocking or move, lets out a kind of stunned laugh. he goes on continuing trying to teach me some basic move I learned before he was alive on this earth. and I do it again punch him on the jaw with my other hand. he didn't even prepare for something[I would if this happened to me] so he just continues to run his mouth and I tap his groin with a front instep kick. through all this he never used footwork, tried blocking or defending himself. yet he is teaching me Sanda.

    then my Shifu's kung fu brother come up to me later when I'm doing a kicking combination, he starts off with no and shaking his head[here we go,im thinking] he is going to reteach me how to do a round house kick. something I learn thirty years ago. I just couldn't do the whole let me be quiet and pretend I don't know how to do this and let him be the MASTER. I told him in Chinese[I'm tired, I had knee surgery before, and I don't want to give my body any problem].

    The funny thing is at 46 and with reconstructive knee surgery, I still train everyday, about two hours. sometimes in the yard by myself sometimes with the kids. The Kung fu uncle and his young apprentice never train. I have never seen either of them train or sweat.
    I actually dont mind all the fake mcdojo schools or the entertainment culture behind martial arts like if an old person gets attacked by a wild dog they are better off trying to find a broom stick staff lol then trying to attempt a bjj takedown. My bak mei school is in a popular city so all types of students have trained in it from Lion Dance students to people from other styles that are famous on youtube for sparring like Judo, BJJ and Muay Thai.

    What is the 120 pound 18 year old with less skills than the 40 year old Heavyweight going to do in a kickbox match?. A good martial art would give you skills to improvise so give the lightweight a can of mace he now has a chance to escape the heavy attacks from the big guy. Give the Wing Chun guy his two swords and let the mma guy use his takedowns see what school wins.


    I mean would you teach your grandma ground and pound or buy her a knife, I like that martial art has an entertainment culture that attracts all types of athletes and most may not be super american green berets lol but at least there is enough styles out there that the average joe may pick up enough skills and aggression with a weapon to not just get run over by crazy people.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by shanghai-mantis View Post
    Xu has set this situation up so its a loss for Taiji whatever. The young Chen village guys train Sanda, which Xu is saying is not valid, as even if they win they arent using Taiji to fight him.
    lol They haven't even fought yet... What a copout.

    Wasn't he saying particularly Tai Chi, but in fact the whole CMA world is full of fakers?

    He'll fight an obvious fraud, but then when real martial artists step up he looks for excuses to avoid facing them. Bit cowardly...

    My hope is this whole thing will drag CMA out of the hole its dug itself into. Just yesterday was training in the park with Rendahai, and a guy in beautiful white silks turned up next to us, a crowd surrounded him with camera phones while he did some little tricks having people grab his write... all the while looking really smug and full of himself.
    That's funny! He was actually trying to show off or show you guys up?

    Should've welcomed him to a little sparring session, unless he was like 60~70 something.

    As Lei Lei discovered, getting punched in the face by someone really wanting to hurt you is very different to doing Push Hands in the park. What I think he should have done was stand his ground, cover his head and meet the force head on. That would have allowed them to go into close enough range for him to at least attempt his Push Hands stuff.
    That's assuming he had any practical experience using his Push Hands stuff.

    It probably would have ended worse for him if he had done that.

    Based on the dishonorable conduct Xu shows in this clip in front of a handful of buddies, kicking this weaker, inexperienced dude in the face when he's already down, I could foresee in the very public match where he had something to prove, if they clashed it would have been clinch to takedown to actual arm break even if the guy tapped if he knew how.

    The guy just comes off as a massive douche, but I agree, CMA needs to be "drug from the hole it's dug itself into". Unfortunately, this sort of thing will likely cause CMA to be abandoned even more, as people interested in actual fighting will jump on the MMA bandwagon as it gains steam in China, rather than training CMA in a more practical way.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by wiz cool c View Post
    so at one point the young guy starts trying to teach me some basic punch I learned over 20 years ago. and last weekend he was trying to do some nonsense demo stuff with me. so the whole class is watching now and I lost it. I punched him in the jaw[lightly] while he was TEACHING me. he doesn't. he doesn't try blocking or move, lets out a kind of stunned laugh. he goes on continuing trying to teach me some basic move I learned before he was alive on this earth. and I do it again punch him on the jaw with my other hand. he didn't even prepare for something[I would if this happened to me] so he just continues to run his mouth and I tap his groin with a front instep kick. through all this he never used footwork, tried blocking or defending himself. yet he is teaching me Sanda.
    I dunno man, some times you need to acknowledge the difference between demo mode and fight mode. Why are you trying to fight a guy who's explaining something?

    Any smartass can say "well, I could just do this" or get in a free pop when something is being demoed.

    Better, I think, to respectfully let them show their thing, then ask them to do it in real time with you being noncompliant. Otherwise, you just make yourself look...

  11. #26
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    @LFJ

    I'm not saying I think Xu is particularly great or anything. But I am quite enjoying the storm he is kicking up now. Give it time, and someone decent will come and kick his ass. There are a lot of good guys over here, just they need a prod to step into the spotlight.

  12. #27
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    Let's suppose a properly fight-trained kung fu guy adapted his art enough to make it a part of his sport MMA fighting, and could clearly use it effectively in the ring. He still couldn't win in the public opinion:

    1. The TCMA people would say he isn't really using his art (whichever CMA style that is), because..."He does this; he doesn't do that; his rear foot was up when he...his elbow was 2.5 inches too far to the left when he..."

    2. If he won, the MMA fans/pundits/internet experts would say, "This proves nothing. He didn't beat a legitimate MMA fighter; he beat an old guy...he beat a newbie...etc."

    3. However, if the CMA guy lost to the same fighter in the above example, the pundits would say, "Of course he lost; kung fu sucks. Told ya so. LMFAO."

    Just like many people were claiming that Lyoto Machida wasn't using Shotokan karate in his fights; whereas, anyone with a brain who is at all familiar with Shotokan or similar karate styles could see that he did indeed adapt it very effectively into MMA as his core.

    CMA as a whole (and that comprises a lot of different MAs) has become the collective whipping boy of MMA. Even though there are other MAs that, AFAIK, have never been successfully proven, or even attempted, in an MMA fight, at least in the West, such as FMA, Silat and Krav Maga. Yet those arts still have lots of respect from the public.
    Last edited by Jimbo; 05-02-2017 at 08:15 AM.

  13. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    I dunno man, some times you need to acknowledge the difference between demo mode and fight mode. Why are you trying to fight a guy who's explaining something?

    Any smartass can say "well, I could just do this" or get in a free pop when something is being demoed.

    Better, I think, to respectfully let them show their thing, then ask them to do it in real time with you being noncompliant. Otherwise, you just make yourself look...
    why because I have been at the school for a year and a half and he has been there maybe a month. because I am 46 and have done martial arts 30 years, he studied a little in the army. cause he is trying to teach me something I learned before he was born, cause no one asked him to try and teach me. so if he wants to play teacher with me well, prove it pal. prove what you are showing me works. its calling bull****.


    if he is teaching sanda he should know how to fight. after I popped him once he should have been on guard, I popped him again and then again. I don't need advice on how to fight from someone like that thanks. not to mention I am obviously his senior in that I have trained at the school for a year and a half and he is just been hanging around [not training] but doing little nonsense tricks and showing off and other nonsense. mans got to do what a mans got to do sorry pal. I can guess what comes next[well you have been doing martial arts for 30 years you should be more humble] ,or some other nonsense. yeah go into a thaiboxing gym in thialand ,or a judo school in japan and try playing this game with them and see how that goes. only in kung fu fantasy land does this garbage fly.
    Last edited by wiz cool c; 05-02-2017 at 08:28 AM.

  14. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by diego View Post
    I actually dont mind all the fake mcdojo schools or the entertainment culture behind martial arts like if an old person gets attacked by a wild dog they are better off trying to find a broom stick staff lol then trying to attempt a bjj takedown. My bak mei school is in a popular city so all types of students have trained in it from Lion Dance students to people from other styles that are famous on youtube for sparring like Judo, BJJ and Muay Thai.

    What is the 120 pound 18 year old with less skills than the 40 year old Heavyweight going to do in a kickbox match?. A good martial art would give you skills to improvise so give the lightweight a can of mace he now has a chance to escape the heavy attacks from the big guy. Give the Wing Chun guy his two swords and let the mma guy use his takedowns see what school wins.


    I mean would you teach your grandma ground and pound or buy her a knife, I like that martial art has an entertainment culture that attracts all types of athletes and most may not be super american green berets lol but at least there is enough styles out there that the average joe may pick up enough skills and aggression with a weapon to not just get run over by crazy people.
    I'm not quite sure what you are tying to say here if you are referring to me as the 40 year old heavy weight, I'm about 170 pounds not a heavy weight and am 5 foot 9. that 18 years old is the same height maybe 20 pounds lighter, has youth on his side and was trained in the military, and is the one who choose to try and train his senior in drum roll please" kick boxing".[by senior I mean the guy who has been around at the school longer].he put himself in that situation. as for all the other stuff you are saying, it is not related to the topic.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by shanghai-mantis View Post
    There are a lot of good guys over here, just they need a prod to step into the spotlight.
    Yes, I've been happily surprised before. I'll be glad to see that happen some day.

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