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Thread: Hand techiniches on kung fu

  1. #1

    Hand techiniches on kung fu

    On traditional kung fu, and also on karate the classic punches, but also the other hand techiniches leave from the hip, its called hikite on japanese karate, and when a hand hit the other go on opposite direction, this do the traditional kung fu punch, different by to the boxe punch where the hand are always on Guard near to the face to the protection to the body, now my question is

    1 Wy on traditional kung fu the punch are chamberring on the hip, is there a reason ?

    2 How can I defend my face, and my body it my hand are on the hip?

    Greetings

  2. #2
    I'm sure I'm asking for it responding to this one.

    I would go with the obvious answer, training is not sparring. I don't know of any serious kungfu or karate person that would fight with their fists chambered at their waist. My guess would be just like high kicks, you get the maximum range by going from chambered to a long punch. You should be able to throw a punch from any position your hand is in. It maybe also has something to do with relaxing the shoulders.

    To answer your second question it makes it a bit tough, don't do it unless you like getting hit in the face.

  3. #3
    Funakoshi said (I'm paraphrasing): Never retract an empty hand.

  4. #4
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    You expose your

    - head to invite a punch.
    - groin to invite a kick.

    Where should you put your hands in fighting?

    If your opponent is

    - 50 feet away, you are safe to lay down on the ground.
    - 6 feet away, you should worry about his kick.
    - 3 feet away, you should worry about his punch.
    - in clinch, you should worry about his throw.

    When you are standing in front of your opponent, you try to

    - act like you are nervous.
    - look down and avoid eyes contact.
    - shake your body if you can.
    - pee in you pants if you can.

    You suddenly jump in like a tiger and eat your opponent alive. Where are your hands when you attack? Your hands are next to your knees.
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 05-18-2017 at 09:57 AM.
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjaforever View Post
    On traditional kung fu, and also on karate the classic punches, but also the other hand techiniches leave from the hip, its called hikite on japanese karate, and when a hand hit the other go on opposite direction, this do the traditional kung fu punch, different by to the boxe punch where the hand are always on Guard near to the face to the protection to the body, now my question is

    1 Wy on traditional kung fu the punch are chamberring on the hip, is there a reason ?

    2 How can I defend my face, and my body it my hand are on the hip?

    Greetings
    This is a starting point in forms and sets which express full range of motion.
    This is not where he hands sit when sparring.
    Kung Fu is good for you.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    When you are standing in front of your opponent, you try to

    - act like you are nervous.
    - look down and avoid eyes contact.
    - shake your body if you can.
    - pee in you pants if you can.
    Going a bit OT:

    Actually, if your bladder is full, peeing your pants (if possible) before a fight has a more practical purpose than just psyching someone out. It's well-known among many old-time street fighters, to avoid the dangers of being struck in a full bladder.

    As for the non-punching hand pulling back, that often represents pulling the opponent's arm while simultaneously striking him with the other. Otherwise you strike from wherever your hand happens to be. It would be stupid to face an opponent with your hand(s) on your hip(s).
    Last edited by Jimbo; 05-18-2017 at 10:25 AM.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    to avoid the dangers of being struck in a full bladder.
    This is why in CMA that for certain period of time, you can cause more damage on your opponent if you hit on different part of his body.

    For example,

    - between 8 am - 10 am, hit on your opponent's bladder.
    - between 12 noon - 2 pm, hit on your opponent's stomach.
    - ...
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  8. #8
    Some of the applications for the chambered fist I have seen/heard over the years are: My Shaolin Shifu teaches the lead hand grabs and pulls the opponent towards you while the rear hand punches the incoming body. Another is you are facing two adversaries, the chambered hand is a rear low back elbow strike. The last is the same as the exaggerated stances, they aren't meant to be done in fighting but are a method of training the body. Every time I post a video on this message board, it instantly get two dislikes. I think Bagwat has two youtube accounts. He likes to spend his time being a productive member of society ;]
    Last edited by wiz cool c; 05-19-2017 at 01:43 AM.

  9. #9
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    In addition, when training punches say on bags, for power for example. After the punch is delivered and the arm pulls back into chamber, it should be like an additional elbow strike when pulling back into chamber, if a bag were to be behind you (as you rotate between left and right arm strikes).

    *PS: (edit): if a person on one of those tv shows hooked a boxer up and a shaolin practitioner up to one of those machines which can read what's going on in terms of force, torsion, where the power is coming from, what muscles and ligaments were involved in the technique, etc., they would find the mechanics to be a bit different between the styles. I suppose that still leaves the question of why the difference in the first place. perhaps this is where someone might say, "let me tell you the story of a man named Bodhi-dharma"...
    Last edited by MarathonTmatt; 05-22-2017 at 06:13 PM.

  10. #10
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    In a lot of traditional schools the off hand is not held at the waist but higher up towards the nipple, with the folded arm closed over the exposed part of the ribs. Secondly the head is directly over the front foot, not PAST the foot, but also not falling short of the foot. The whole stance of a reverse punch is like a right angled triangle including spine and head in line with back leg. Seen in the context of the whole stance the hand position makes sense, hold the hand higher and it changes the weight distribution dramatically. Remember it is not a position held in combat but a position moved through.

    So why put the hand there? There is no theory, it is direct imitation of reality. Take a moment to google images of someone throwing a cross, a freeze frame from an actual boxing match and you will see just as often as not that the hand is placed in pretty much this position. This is the difference of when you have a live target you are reaching for as opposed to pads that are in range, watch someone hitting pads in freeze frame and they may maintain the guard closer to the head. Kung fu has many techniques where the off hand is held by the head as well. But when putting all into a punch.....

    The point is where as southern kung fu does have a habit of being somewhat abstract in form, old northern styles strive to be a direct imitation of reality. Rather than asking; Why is the hand there? The ancients simply imitated the movements they saw when people actually fought, hence northern kung fu begins with direct imitation of animal and human movement. Theory comes later. Of course this trend seems to have reversed in the recent history of Kung fu with styles becoming overly theoretical.

    So, there is no PARTicular reason the hand is held there, rather only a reason in context of the whole form of the movement and control of momentum. It is important to realise that it is NOT the resting place of the guard, it is a momentary position frozen by the nature of form practice.
    問「武」。曰:「克。」未達。曰:「勝己之私之謂克。」

  11. #11
    bad general title, you should have asked this under a clearer and more precise title, like "why chamber hands on sides?", or something clearer like that. good questions, though.
    _________
    first question:
    "1. Why in traditional kung fu fists are chambered at the hips, is there a reason?"
    _________
    the answer:
    in styles like Shaolin, anything is well reasoned, and this chambering has a cultural and some strong combat-oriented reasons:

    1. the cultural reason is Shaolin monks are Buddhists, they do daily meditation. in meditation you keep your hands in front of your lower abdomen to help gather more Qi in the lower-abdominal balloon (called dantian), in this case, the hands are kept not at sides, but more front, at below or closer to below the center of the dantian;

    2. holding hands around the abdomen isn't merely a Buddhist or qigong notion, but has combat applications as well. unlike karate, in Shaolin, when not busy, this hand is not purposelessly put at the side, but is kept in front of the abdomen or moved more upward to guard the center or upward the head or downward to the groins. boxers do it all the time by keeping their unused arm in front. however, boxers just care about their face and temples and don't guard their center; they move their guard recklessly upward to their heads, exposing whole their center, like the abdomen and the groins defenselessly. Shaolin small hong form has lots of this application.

    3. when swinging one arm forward to attack, swinging the other arm backward in the same angular direction helps make more momentum in the attack. boxers do it all the time. this is a first bodily move lesson everybody knows. Shaolin pao quan has lots of this application.

    4. a more advanced tactic is that when you attack or even defend with a single arm, you should cover your body and the main attacking/defending arm with the other arm. so, for punching with your right arm, your left arm sweeps forward first, in this method, if the sweeping arm gets in touch with the opponents arms, it parries them away to a side to clear the path for the main operating arm. that's why the sweeping hand usually goes to the side. then it can also swing more backward to empower the main arm by increasing its momentum as described in reason 1. this is less common but still quite usual among boxers, they do this by parrying with their left arm while punching with the right hand while swinging their waist and shoulders from right to left. Shaolin small hong form has lots of this application.

    5. an even more advanced tactic is to empower your attack by grabbing the opponent and pulling him toward yourself as your other limb is going to hit him. this tremendously increases the destructive power of your attacks. in this case, one arm first grabs the opponent, drags him backward, meanwhile the other arm rushes forward to hit. this is rarely seen done by boxers, you may only see people holding the opponent's head while punching his face. Shaolin small tong bi quan has lots of this application.

    6. some techniques need both arms cooperate. for example, to lock the opponent's right elbow, first your right hand grabs his wrist and swings upward and then down to get chambered on your right side, as in this move. meanwhile, your left hand moves forward and grabs the opponent's elbow as your right hand moves it upward. while your right hand swings the opponent's wrist down to your right side, your left hind moves his elbow forward to turn it to an elbow & shoulder lock. these moves are not at all common among boxers, but quite usual in kung fu. Shaolin big hong form has lots of this application.

    so, whenever you see a hand chambered at the side, it's originally for such a strong reason.
    _________
    and your 2nd question:
    "2. How can I defend my face and my body if my hand are on the hip?"
    _________
    i already answered this question in applications no 2 and 4 above.
    Last edited by SHemmati; 05-24-2017 at 11:36 AM.

  12. #12
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    Kinesthetic Awareness

    Here's another useful idea, not necessarily an application though...

    Body scan meditation enhances awareness of each part of the body individually, and then the body as a whole without any particular focal point.

    Extending this into action meditation via forms practice develops the ability to remain aware of each part of the body in space while not necessarily focused on any particular point, all while moving through complex patterns.

    The goal is to be able to control each part of the body without consciously putting things where they need to be. Of course, this takes practicing forms slowly, and then gradually adding speed without losing whole body awareness, down to the tiny details.

    Some times in forms the chambered hand will be held in a fist, and some times an open palm, often for no other reason than to train kinesthetic awareness, as students may be so focused on the attacking hand that they lose awareness of the off hand and don't even know what it's doing.

    A seemingly insignificant detail like this can throw you off if you're not like the spider who while focused on one part of his web, knows what's happening at every other part.

    How this translates into fighting is in the ability to attack and defend without thought, since a fist fight affords no one the luxury of time to get things right. It just has to be right. This doesn't necessarily relate to a direct application of the chambered hand, but to general body awareness necessary for fighting.

    You'll see people often get knocked out when they are committed to a punch while totally unaware of where the off hand is, which is usually nowhere useful. Had they been aware of both hands and kept one in good defensive position, they may have had a better chance of defending the knockout shots.

    Shaolin "action meditation" is great for developing this ability, with all the tiny details to get right while "thoughtlessly" running through a form.

    Of course, it also then takes sparring practice to put things into practical terms.

  13. #13
    yea, a very good point and well said.
    in fact, there's subtle differences between practicing and reality. there should be. when practicing a form, we may intermittently stop move by move and pause for a while in any posture to attain body awareness, review the posture, and correct it if needed. this is while in actual sparring, that move might be a never-stop transitory phase. for example, consider the xubu stance, never in actual combat anybody is going to pause on his tiptoes, this is a transitory phase whilst you quickly retreat or transit from one stable posture to another. as another example, in actual combat you don't and can't pause when punching forward, you don't keep your arm extended straight in front, it hits and quickly retreats back.

    when practicing forms, at pre-intermediary levels it might be ok to pause at any posture you want, it helps you gain body awareness and review the posture. but at more advanced level, one should perfectly simulate actual combat, except for when reviewing and correcting a posture.

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