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Thread: VT ideas at longer range

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sihing73 View Post
    I find it kind of amusing that for someone who states that there are no "techniques/applications" in their approach to VT/WC/WT and that everything is really just a punch (Taun is a method of punching according to your past posts) that you are comfortable with dividing contact into various ranges.
    Is a kick really just a punch?

    Would seem the simple approach would be to accept there is contact and non contact.
    I agree with you here. These range terms were applied by KPM because he knows more about boxing than VT.

    VT deals with pre-contact and contact range. But, I speak in his terms on the topic because he believes VT can't make contact without being in what he calls "chi-sau range", so to him anything more extended, yet still able to make contact is "long-range" and his WC doesn't have it.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    Is a kick really just a punch?

    I agree with you here. These range terms were applied by KPM because he knows more about boxing than VT.

    VT deals with pre-contact and contact range. But, I speak in his terms on the topic because he believes VT can't make contact without being in what he calls "chi-sau range", so to him anything more extended, yet still able to make contact is "long-range" and his WC doesn't have it.
    I understand your confusion, allow me to help you out here.

    Read my post and I think you will see the context was explained to be using Taun as an example.
    Kind of like how you guys keep saying there are no applications or techniques yet you train the same things as the rest of the WC/VT/WT world. Just that to you every movement, since there are no "techniques" is really "punch training". So using your mindset I wonder what trains the kicking and whether they are techniques too or some weird method of squating into your opponent.

    For clarification, in my approach every kick is actually a step. It just happens that sometimes I step into or onto my opponent.

    I guess you really are obsessed with KPM. That can be a dangerous thing as your reactions are kind of dictated on your perception of what you "think" he would say. In a way that gives KPM a lot of power and influence over you and your posts. It might be better to simply discuss the topic at hand and not worry about what you believe someone else may think but instead to say what you believe to be the case.

    Just saying.........................
    Last edited by Sihing73; 06-29-2017 at 09:04 AM.
    Peace,

    Dave

    http://www.sifuchowwingchun.com
    Wherever my opponent stands--they are in my space

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sihing73 View Post
    I understand your confusion, allow me to help you out here.

    Read my post and I think you will see the context was explained to be using Taun as an example.
    Kind of like how you guys keep saying there are no applications or techniques yet you train the same things as the rest of the WC/VT/WT world. Just that to you every movement, since there are no "techniques" is really "punch training". So using your mindset I wonder what trains the kicking and whether they are techniques too or some weird method of squating into your opponent.
    WTF are you on about?

    I guess you really are obsessed with KPM. That can be a dangerous thing as your reactions are kind of dictated on your perception of what you "think" he would say. In a way that gives KPM a lot of power and influence over you and your posts. It might be better to simply discuss the topic at hand and not worry about what you believe someone else may think but instead to say what you believe to be the case.

    Just saying.........................
    So, you edit your post to take out the part that says KPM didn't even post in this thread, after you realize you're wrong, yet leave this BS about me thinking of him and imagining what he'd say??

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    WTF are you on about?


    So, you edit your post to take out the part that says KPM didn't even post in this thread, after you realize you're wrong, yet leave this BS about me thinking of him and imagining what he'd say??


    What exactly is the part giving you trouble??
    You made a reference to a Kick being a Punch (??) with the implication that I had confused or did not understand the difference between a kick and a punch.
    I explained my point of reference using things you posted in the past.
    Given your posting method I thought you would be able to grasp what I was saying.
    I am afraid I am unsure of how to explain this so you can understand better.

    as to KPM my point is that you, and Guy B, seem to be obsessed with KPM and TWC. You go out of your way to speak poorly about both every chance you get. You also tell people that they do not understand your VT and need to experience it themselves in person in order to be able to understand. Which can be a valid point. However, you then make assumptions about how others train, what they believe and their level of knowledge without the empirical evidence to support your claims.

    You question someones actual experience but offer nothing to support your approach being better. You ask for video evidence yet have nothing of your own to post, for example.
    Peace,

    Dave

    http://www.sifuchowwingchun.com
    Wherever my opponent stands--they are in my space

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sihing73 View Post
    You made a reference to a Kick being a Punch (??) with the implication that I had confused or did not understand the difference between a kick and a punch.
    No. You said everything is a punch to me. I've been talking about kicking. If a kick is not a punch, then your statement is false.

    make assumptions about how others train, what they believe and their level of knowledge without the empirical evidence to support your claims.
    I have the empirical evidence to support it. Anything I've ever noted about TWC can be seen on video readily available for viewing online.

    You question someones actual experience but offer nothing to support your approach being better.
    Whose experience? These are two separate issues.

    You ask for video evidence yet have nothing of your own to post, for example.
    When have I ever asked for video? The only thing remotely close to this is having asked for things I was not seeing in available video to be pointed out to me.

    I don't demand video of people.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    No. You said everything is a punch to me. I've been talking about kicking. If a kick is not a punch, then your statement is false.

    I have the empirical evidence to support it. Anything I've ever noted about TWC can be seen on video readily available for viewing online.

    Whose experience? These are two separate issues.

    When have I ever asked for video? The only thing remotely close to this is having asked for things I was not seeing in available video to be pointed out to me.

    I don't demand video of people.
    To be clear what I posted is below and was in reference to your implying that because a Boxer does not have kicking they have no "long range" game.

    I find it kind of amusing that for someone who states that there are no "techniques/applications" in their approach to VT/WC/WT and that everything is really just a punch (Taun is a method of punching according to your past posts) that you are comfortable with dividing contact into various ranges. Would seem the simple approach would be to accept there is contact and non contact. Less chance of muddying the waters. Of course there can be variations of said contact but when you focus on a specific subset such as long or short etc, you really limit your responses. In a sense you can get tunnel vision and rather than simply flowing with what is given waste time trying to fit something into your understanding of range.

    Please read that and then explain where the falsehood comes in. I know you like to split hairs when it does not work in your favor but I would expect most people to be able to draw the correlation. If you consistently post that there are no techniques or applications and that everything is "punch training" then you should understand what I am saying. Of course, it is easier to try and deflect rather than actually post a credible response.

    The discussion was about range and I have stated that there is only contact and no contact. Something to which you seem to agree as you stated your system has contact and pre contact. Yet you also posted that a viable striking art must address ranges (not an exact quote but a paraphrase). You pointed the finger at KPM as to why you answered that there were ranges and implied that the reason to do so was due to Boxing being referenced and having no long range game. Yet if there is only contact and pre contact than as long as someone can be hit they are in range.

    So, let's ask a simple question and see if we can get an actual answer:

    In your approach to VT are there various ranges and if so what are they?
    Peace,

    Dave

    http://www.sifuchowwingchun.com
    Wherever my opponent stands--they are in my space

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sihing73 View Post
    Please read that and then explain where the falsehood comes in.
    Here:

    everything is really just a punch
    False. A kick, for example, is not a punch.

    The discussion was about range and I have stated that there is only contact and no contact. Something to which you seem to agree as you stated your system has contact and pre contact. Yet you also posted that a viable striking art must address ranges (not an exact quote but a paraphrase).
    Ranges as defined by KPM are encompassed within contact and pre-contact.
    What he defines as "long-range" is the outer limit of contact range or pre-contact.

    No viable striking art will fail to address that outer limit, whether or not or how they define multiple ranges.

    So, let's ask a simple question and see if we can get an actual answer:

    In your approach to VT are there various ranges and if so what are they?
    Why would you ask a question that has already been answered?

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    Here:



    False. A kick, for example, is not a punch.

    Please read in context and then frame your response. It is always possible to pick out a portion and make it say what you want. Context is the key and I believe the context is correct. You have stated many times that "there are no techniques or applications. Taun Sau is not an application but is punch training."


    Ranges as defined by KPM are encompassed within contact and pre-contact.
    What he defines as "long-range" is the outer limit of contact range or pre-contact.

    No viable striking art will fail to address that outer limit, whether or not or how they define multiple ranges.

    Once again you need to reference KPM to try and support your statement now. You should be able to stand on your own.

    Why would you ask a question that has already been answered?
    But has it been answered??
    Let's say I am incredibly dense and did not understand.
    Can you tell me, in simple terms, whether or not your VT has various ranges and if so how they are broken down? Or do you have contact and pre-contact only? Not what KPM or someone else says but what you say in accordance with your VT.
    Peace,

    Dave

    http://www.sifuchowwingchun.com
    Wherever my opponent stands--they are in my space

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sihing73 View Post
    You have stated many times that "there are no techniques or applications. Taun Sau is not an application but is punch training."
    Correct, but it does not follow that "everything is really just a punch".

    Once again you need to reference KPM to try and support your statement now. You should be able to stand on your own.
    ?

    There is a need to reference the person who brought up different ranges because that is who the debate is with.

    But has it been answered??
    Let's say I am incredibly dense and did not understand.
    Yes. I've been saying that.

    Can you tell me, in simple terms, whether or not your VT has various ranges and if so how they are broken down? Or do you have contact and pre-contact only? Not what KPM or someone else says but what you say in accordance with your VT.
    Was it not clear when I said I agree; pre-contact and contact? I need not get anymore complicated than that.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    Was it not clear when I said I agree; pre-contact and contact? I need not get anymore complicated than that.
    So then you agree that there is only contact and pre-contact but you also break down the contact phase into various ranges, is that correct?

    So you have Long Range, Grappling Range etc; is that your approach or are you again speaking for someone else?

    I am going to lunch soon but I am sure this can be continued.

    Oh, my ex does feel I can be both dense and stubborn........I view it as a gift
    Peace,

    Dave

    http://www.sifuchowwingchun.com
    Wherever my opponent stands--they are in my space

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sihing73 View Post
    So then you agree that there is only contact and pre-contact but you also break down the contact phase into various ranges, is that correct?

    So you have Long Range, Grappling Range etc; is that your approach or are you again speaking for someone else?
    Holy hell, dude... no.

    I can humor a religious person in their worldview to reach an understanding and make some points without adopting their worldview.

    Likewise, I only care about pre-contact and contact, but I can speak in terms of various ranges because I know what is meant by them.

  12. #27
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    LFJ,

    You sound like you're getting frustrated.

    Now imagine how others feel when you post and refuse to give any credence to their view. Or when you constantly attack someone or a particular system.
    Peace,

    Dave

    http://www.sifuchowwingchun.com
    Wherever my opponent stands--they are in my space

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sihing73 View Post
    Now imagine how others feel when you post and refuse to give any credence to their view. Or when you constantly attack someone or a particular system.
    You can't expect someone to believe and accept your view is true just because you feel frustrated if they don't.

    I don't attack people. I do critically analyze methods, and a couple people take it personally.

    I think it's a problem to be so invested in a martial art that you'd sooner take personal offense than consider possibly valid criticism.

    It seems particularly in the WC world people are more concerned with "face" and emotions than actual technical discussion.

  14. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by KPM View Post
    I explained there in good detail that there is a difference between having a "long range game" as Boxing does, and having a strategy for surviving at long range long enough to be able to transition to your preferred close range. I'm sure you must have read it. And yet you think those PB videos you posted show a "long range game" equivalent to what I was describing?
    These clips from PB show a few elements of VT non contact strategy which can be used at longer range. VT of course has a long range game just as boxing does, and in fact more so due to artificial limitations placed upon the sport of boxing.

    Boxing is not compatible with VT and so I would recommend you do not try to mix the two.

    Feel free to ask if you would like to learn more about VT tactics at longer range.

  15. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Sihing73 View Post
    But has it been answered??
    Let's say I am incredibly dense and did not understand.
    Can you tell me, in simple terms, whether or not your VT has various ranges and if so how they are broken down? Or do you have contact and pre-contact only? Not what KPM or someone else says but what you say in accordance with your VT.
    Contact and pre-contact only

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