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Thread: Application used in sparring

  1. #16
    I hate to comment on a thread that's starting off like this, especially after Plato got dragged into it...but I do agree with the assertion that conditioning is at the very heart of Kung Fu.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    This is 100% TCMA principle. It may be used in non-TCMA also. Since I did learn it from TCMA, I have to say it's TCMA principle.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    We should not use "TCMA is more than combat" as excuse for not "evolving".

    You can have Kung Fu in cooking, it really has nothing to do with fighting!

  2. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellen Bassette View Post
    I hate to comment on a thread that's starting off like this, especially after Plato got dragged into it...but I do agree with the assertion that conditioning is at the very heart of Kung Fu.
    And the tooth fairy as well. And I don't even know what this thread is about. I think wiz was debunkingn kung fu movies as unrealistic.

  3. #18

    this thread is about another misunderstanding!

    if you're wondering, this thread is about wiz cool c's misunderstanding about gong bu (bow and arrow) stance.

    it is a general misconception, people think when you transit into arrow stance, you simply bend your front leg and straighten your rear leg. the origin of this confusion is that in most resources, especially the books, they just show the postures with no transitional phase. there is a difference here that most people don't know:

    1. competition wushu schools care about performance not forcing. they teach their students to transit to arrow stance very swiftly and skip forcing details. this is faster and saves a lot of time and effort.

    2. Shaolin school devises proper transition to provide leverage for maximum power. to form arrow stance, the rear foot first pivots on its toes, then turns to lock the sole to the ground while the knee is straightened, this is to create forward force. this process of transitioning to arrow stance doesn't necessarily need be done from the beginning to the end. meanwhile this transition, in some cases, you may not need additional force or you might have to change the move, so you may need to stop or change to another transition before the sole of your foot gets to touch the ground. it all depends. a stance is not like one steady frame, it has a continuous transition. the transition flow is important as it generates power. you learn the stance, you learn the transition flow until it ends up in the final shape. for example, as mentioned above, in transition to arrow stance, in most cases, the rear leg bends and pivots on its toes, turns until it eds up straightened on the whole sole of the foot.

    here, seems like most other people out there, wiz cool c hasn't been taught proper transition and forcing of the stancework in Shaolin forms. he has correctly understood that case 1 above is not practical, but instead thinks that the arrow stance should not end up with the feet soles on the ground! he has mistaken the transitional phase of the stance for the whole process and quite funnily thinks it's all it should end up with, i.e., the stance should stop in the middle of the transition, with a bent rear leg on its toes! he opened this thread by announcing this misunderstanding as his new discovery and denounced forms as teaching impractical stances!
    there are many misconceptions about stances, it needs a dedicated thread.
    Last edited by SHemmati; 07-18-2017 at 06:50 AM.

  4. #19
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    The "玉环步(Yu Huan Bu) - monkey stance" is the follow up for the "bow arrow stance". When your opponent moves back and your bow arrow stance can't reach him, you raise your back foot heel, slide forward to get more reach.

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    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 07-18-2017 at 05:06 PM.
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  5. #20
    Shotokan seem to do a similar revere punch, now I never studied Shotokan, but from the videos of their competition they seem pretty solid in their technique and practical use of them. looks very similar to what I am doing in my clip, minus the upward defecting hand as done in Shaolin kung fu.

    There are a couple more issues I would like to point out, that further distinguish between fantasy vs reality.

    In the clip I have we are on loss dirt, if the people talking trash had any "experience" ever sparring on such a surface, they would know it is very slippery. That is the main reason I choose to spar that day on it, opposed to the flat sturdy concrete in the front and side of the school. Now if the fantasy based trainers would have had {experience} that is a key word here{experience}sparring on such a surface, they would know this. Point two, it is obvious I am pulling my punches, as all good fighters do in practice. All the Thai boxing and MMA schools I have crossed trained in do the same. You develop your power hitting pads, you can condition your body for contact with two man conditioning drills, and sparring is mostly for practicing timing and distancing.[once in a while you spar hard, not often] Now for some reason these so called kung fu high level experts giving advice on fighting cant tell when someone is going light[sounds pretty suspicious]as anyone from other styles that actually fight would obviously know this. Point three I had reconstructive knee surgery in China without physical therapy after{I'm lucky I'm not a crippled, and still training]. So being that I am 46 sparring big young guys on slippery ground means I have to take extra cautious as well. Does this help any of the reality based members here further understand how delusional some members in the Chinese kung fu community still are?
    Last edited by wiz cool c; 07-18-2017 at 10:13 PM.

  6. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by wiz cool c View Post
    Shotokan seem to do a similar revere punch, now I never studied Shotokan, but from the videos of their competition they seem pretty solid in their technique and practical use of them. looks very similar to what I am doing in my clip, minus the upward defecting hand as done in Shaolin kung fu.
    Shotokan teaches straight back leg. He is showing lunged reverse punches. (At 00:51 is a plain gyaku zuki, only that the back foot would be flat on the ground.) The back leg straightens as it accelerates the body and then folds a little when it gets dragged behind. His technique is geared towards point sparring.

  7. #22
    Shaolin trains forms in the large frame. Like all Kung Fu systems that do this, these are exaggerated mechanics that aren't necessarily going to look the same in live sparring/fighting.

    The stance with the raised heel from northern styles is more similar to how you would apply a cross from a boxing or Muay Thai perspective. Of course it also wider and exaggerated as Kung Fu systems tend to train to the extreme to reinforce mechanics and for aesthetic purposes.

    The feet remain flat on the ground in the orthodox bow stance because of emphasis on rooting. (I believe one can effectively root while lifting one heel, however.) In application there is always going to be some trade off between power and mobility. I's great if we can sink and plant into a strong stance and wail away with tons of power and root, but if your feet are glued to the ground you are going to get destroyed. On the other hand if your just dancing around in circle and never "sitting" on any of your strikes, you aren't going to generate any real power. The balance between mobility and sinking/rooting/sitting on punches is evident among any high level fighter from any discipline.

    That being said, I think the "pose" of many of the traditional stances is a freeze frame of what often happens at the split second of the end of a technique...in these pictures we see what looks an awful lot like a bow stance, but with the back heel raised a bit, as is the reality of chasing an opponent down.

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    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    This is 100% TCMA principle. It may be used in non-TCMA also. Since I did learn it from TCMA, I have to say it's TCMA principle.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    We should not use "TCMA is more than combat" as excuse for not "evolving".

    You can have Kung Fu in cooking, it really has nothing to do with fighting!

  8. #23
    Here are some more clips of myself sparring. I know it is with 16 17 and 18 year olds, but that is what is around me, and hey they are good training partners. Now I'm not saying any of this is ground breaking, but this is applying what you learn not standing around in fancy outfits hiding behind mysterious theories, and I'm too good to get out there and mix it up nonsense.

  9. #24
    If a UFC fighter is doing it ,you know it's wrong, he's not using traditional theories But seriously I agree with what was said above about the stance being the freeze frame of the particular moment in action, as well as all the movements in the form being exenterated for training purposes. Karate fighters, boxers, Thai boxers and sanda fighters all punch with their heal up of their rear foot, but the kung fu forms don't. honestly who would you want to have your back down a dark alley, a Karate fighter, boxer, Thai boxer and sanda fighter or the traditionalist who does the text book front stance in forms practice but obviously never mixes it up like the previously mentioned fighters.
    Last edited by wiz cool c; 07-19-2017 at 07:40 AM.

  10. #25
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    Stance is perhaps the most misunderstood part of Shaolin Kung Fu.

    There are many different methods of generating power in traditional Shaolin,

    take this form Ti Shou Pao (Rising-Hand-Canon), it uses the dragon riding stance to generate power which relies on the rear foot being heel up. There are plenty of other such stances. Ding Bu Chong Quan, nail step punch is also done by raising the rear heel and using it to pounce forwards, there are many.

    Gong bu is just one mechanism that is used.

    問「武」。曰:「克。」未達。曰:「勝己之私之謂克。」

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kellen Bassette View Post
    trade off between power and mobility.
    Agree! In Baji system, if you are in your

    - beginner level training stage and if move your back foot when you punch, you are wrong.
    - advance level training stage and if don't move your back foot when you punch, you are wrong.

    In other words, the

    - beginner level train power generation.
    - advance level train mobility.

    When you punch your back hand with bow arrow stance, if the distance is too far, you may move into

    1. monkey stance,
    2. side cat stance,
    3. golden rooster stance,
    4. stealing step (twist stance).

    As for the reach, 4 > 3 > 2 > 1 > bow arrow stance

    This thread remind me an old story.

    A guy performed his form in front of a Kung Fu teacher. The Kung Fu teacher said, "You have 6 bow arrow stances in your form. when you did your form, all 6 bow arrow stances are all identical." The guy was very happy and thought that was a complement from the Kung fu teacher. All his life, he didn't understand what exactly that Kung Fu teacher was trying to say to him.

    What the Kung Fu teacher was trying to say was he didn't understand how to modify his bow arrow stance according to different situations.
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 07-19-2017 at 01:44 PM.
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