Does current TCMA training culture need to change?

[diego]

This style and that style lol it`s the great debate of our time but a lot of it is just media hype not everyone has access to the best coaches and many who do who like to talk about this style and that style never did the steroids to go pro with the big boys from your average meathead mma school to your local university karate dojo.

My BJJ Bouncer buddy hates kata like he is a big guy wrestling is his thing since he was young and mike tyson showed him how to use his top heavy body with western boxing knock out combo punches elbows and knees...but if mma guys are so good then why not show us how good you are at lion dance, karate, every weapons and gymnastic ballet contemperory wu shu I mean these guys would be rich like my buddy has a class probably switches between 20-50 BJJ students depending on the season of the year...why not go to the chinese lion dance parade and recruit they have them in most big cities like mma guys who never went pro are using media hype to diss classical styles and lose all those nice red paper envelopes lol.

I mean the average youtube mma amatuer guy has 30 000 youtube subscrubers the ninja Jake Mace master of every style has ove 500 000 subs lol

the media dumb.


There is 100 000 000 Karate practitioners out there why doesnt Chuck Lidell and Tito Ortiz recruit them for there MMA-Karate dojo fitness dvds.

It will be cool to see martial art demos from like 20 years from now when more traditional schools students have grown up with UFC on X Box and PS4

you could do the lion dance leading into the kumite where you have young point sparrers surrounding the older guys cage fighting it would make billions.

[diego]

I'd like to make the argument that the current TCMA training culture is flawed in how it prepares students for practical real life situations and needs to change if it wants to survive. I believe part of the reason is that there is a misguided over reliance on forms as a sufficient means to prepare TCMA students for real fights. Now Im not knocking forms because I feel they serve a very practical purpose to learn new techniques, improve coordination, balance, etc. But I also believe they are being misused in many TCMA schools. I myself was even taught to think that practicing forms over and over and over will somehow make a technique second nature to me in a real fight. This just simply isn't the case. Watch any fight, sanctioned or not, you rarely ever see a TCMA fighter utilize any techniques outside of basic kickboxing moves. Why is that?


This applies to me as well. It's something Ive been thinking about for quite a while now. I studied TCMA mantis for years and very very rarely did I ever think about using a mantis claw technique when sparring. The mantis claw is the entire center of the Mantis system, its very practical, and I practiced it over and over and over in drills and forms, yet, I rarely ever thought about executing it in a free sparring session against a resisting opponent. Why?


Let me conclude this by saying that I disagree with MMA enthusiasts that TCMA is not realistic or practical. I strongly believe TCMA is very practical. My issue is that TCMA is not teaching those practical moves in practical ways. This is why MMA fighters keep dominating TCMA fighters. We want to blame MMA for implementing rules that hinder a TCMA fighters capabilities, but the unfortunate reality is that TCMA has implemented its own rules that have hindered its own fighters. The vast majority of TCMA schools utilize 3 point win sparring system while wearing heavy pads and only strikes to the body. TCMA's love for those cheap karate pads prevent it's own students from training a mantis claw or chi-na technique in a sparring match so that the technique becomes second nature. Unique TCMA moves are not going to be second nature because you practiced them over and over in forms or in padded drills. The become 2nd nature when they've been battle tested and unfortunately the current TCMA training culture has restricted its own students from battle testing practical moves unique to TCMA.

I tend to just see headlines and read replies unless the thread is on page 4 lol, just read your post.

I like to compare Karate kata to MMA because Kung Fu has too many styles and Karate has a more well known history being taught in government schools after the war worldwide.

I learned karate age 7 from a escapee from the Iraq war in the basement of our Vancouver elementary school in 1986.

Karate has the killing hands or as the dojo masters in the UFC world like to call them the banned moves in the ring.

Lets say you know how to MMA fight and know Karate you can`t use your Kata Killing Hands against your peers out of fighters dignity so your combos will look like Machida in UFC blending Karate with Muay Thai and BJJ.

So you don`t know MMA but love Karate and get beat up when your Kata turns into sloppy poor reflexes kickboxing and grade school wrestling.

Here`s the thing with Kata history and the history of warfare.


If the MMA Karate guy gets beat up and survives his UFC kick box combos will be backed up with Karate Kata Killing Hand cheap shots to vital areas which are illegal to hit in sports fight sparring.

so not only is Bas Rutten guarding himself like Muay Thai he is snap kicking to your groin and hammerfisting the back of your neck while smashing your head against the table like BONG lol check out his youtube video if you missed it on self defense.

The Karate guy who doesn`t know UFC but is good at Karate Kickboxing can hope to use his Kata and Kumite Sparring skills to centralize his combos into lucky cheap shot killing hand against a more skilled bully.

Light weight vs Light weight they kickbox. Lightweight vs Heavyweight the lightweight guy looks like the karate Kata guy who doesn know UFC.

The Heavyweight against the Champ or 2 Heavyweights looks like the Karate kata doesn`t know UFC guy when he gasses like Conor Mcgregor vs Floyd in round 7 lol.


Everything you mentioned in your first paragraph basically addresses why they made KAJUKENBO back in the 1940`s in war time Hawaii.

Karate in ww1 if I recall right had to make Kata for sports by taking out the killing hands in Kumite. So you had point sparring 1 block 1 punch 1 kick...people learned like that for awhile.

KAJUKENBO KA KARATE JU Japanese Ju Jitsu KEN Chinese Kempo Bo Western Boxing.

So the whole reason behind the slap hand KAJUKENBO flow drills is to teach the point sparring Kata student to flow with hidden moves like instead of horse stance jab and bow stance right cross you left hand jab then left hand eye rake or backhand then follow with right cross...like if you right elbow to temple his left temple you can return your arm back with right back fist to the right side of his face. They wanted to make the karate kata combos flow more like a western boxers because karate lost the Killing Hands from tribal warfare once everybody and his pirate moms had guns in 1890 leading to revolutions in WW1.

If you do kata and look like crap kickbox when you get beat up obviously you don`t know how to get beat up so you are basically just waving your arms around. most fighters who learn martial arts got beat up and fell in love with self defense.

So in the Oyama DVD they say Kata is for hips and back everything else is Makiwara and Kumite. So Karate student age 10-20 gets Black Belt kata opens and tightens his hips and shoulders makiwara makes him tough and kumite makes him strong. Problems with Karate.


Average Karate is sports students never been in a real fight with fear and immortal danger lol Kata is for hips and back everything else is Makiwara and Kumite...so now the Karate Kid is a Black Belt and he picks up Judo gets bulky becomes Kumite champ.

All of his techniques are thrown without killing hands so to aid his combos he masters weapons to open himself up to using his hands at more unique angles for killing hand cheap shots.


Being popular in government schools Karate doesn`t have the Las Vegas steroids sports fighter culture so point sparring and no killing hands karate kickboxing is more popular than killing hands Kata. Its not the Kata its that people don`t know how to use killing hands. Kata guys and MMA guys both ban them in sparring but it`s the only thing that can give them a cheap shot against multiple attackers like your only chance against someone bigger in BJJ is to catch his ankle for a joint manipulation while he stomps your head in.

Most the actual kata technique in traditional martial art is done as counter strikes or as set ups to knock outs so so called killing hands are really just disorientating jabs to set up the knock out or choke. like throw sand in eyes or elbow to spine after steel toed boot to groin.

karate guys lost it because they stopped fighting multiple oppenents so all of their combos when they get beat up look like no killing hands kick boxing.

MMA guys don`t have it cuz Conor couldn`t even beat Floyd in standup and UFC fighters don`t fight guys 100 pounds better than them and they don`t try those 1 on 1 kickboxing combos in 3 on 8 bar fights with killing hands and utensils.


Weapons training would help the Karate and MMA guy for more interesting angles of using your hips to strike but Karate guys need to fight even harder than how the MMA guys do it...lol Karate guys also have to spend hours of the day on forms.

[MightyB]

To really know Karate from a practical, principles based approach - you have to go deep with Naihanchi.

Start by studying Choki Motobu's history/biography.
Then just go deep google on Naihanchi. Read about it, watch the videos, etc.

I agree with the hard core karate traditionalists on this - If you want to use Karate for dirty street fighting and keep it practical, you'd have to base your practice on Naihanchi.
---

I think the above sentiment ties in with this thread. There's a deep root to all traditional martial arts that's grounded in a couple of core principles which can adapt to many situations. Sometimes that root is so deep that it's hard to find. But, like I said - if you spend enough time in an art, keep an open mind, work hard, etc - you'll find it.

[diego]

To really know Karate from a practical, principles based approach - you have to go deep with Naihanchi.

Start by studying Choki Motobu's history/biography.
Then just go deep google on Naihanchi. Read about it, watch the videos, etc.

I agree with the hard core karate traditionalists on this - If you want to use Karate for dirty street fighting and keep it practical, you'd have to base your practice on Naihanchi.
---

I think the above sentiment ties in with this thread. There's a deep root to all traditional martial arts that's grounded in a couple of core principles which can adapt to many situations. Sometimes that root is so deep that it's hard to find. But, like I said - if you spend enough time in an art, keep an open mind, work hard, etc - you'll find it.

lol, every 3 weeks I learn a new Japanese term lately. I`ve been interested in learning more about chin-ku-chi and Kime, Muchimi. The loose relaxed hands remind me of Bak Mei float and sink principle.

My old kajukenbo Hop Gar hybrid style the teacher was I think 5th degree Shotokan so our first form in Kajukenbo is very mid range Karate like Choi Li Fut and Hung Gar Bow and Horse punches and blocks. Then the legend has it he learned Hop Ga San Da fighting techniques from Harry Wu in San Francisco so all of the flow drills are Karate kickboxing with kung fu defensive hands and White Crane long fists for knock out punches like boxing but using dirty cheap shots backed up with white crane footwork which is similar to Muay Thai rotating twist steps and more karate snap kicks with kung fu sweeps.

So I was like Kung Fu is better than Karate it has white crane knock out punches like mike tyson boxing but after studying Bak Mei and looking at using short hands with rotating forces like boxers parry or knock out chin shot uppercut counterstrikes I`m starting to appreciate how Karate was influenced by kung fu techniques.

I notice https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBcittvxgOk Uechi-ryu combat strategy is very close to the Hakka short fist styles like I see a lot of Jik Bo and Sub Jee in their combos but the more western styles of Karate on tv or whatever tend to be more like mid range Hung Ga Choy Li Fut deep Horse and Bow stance punching the Okinawa schools are closer to Wing Chun Southern Mantis.

My question has any one seen a Long Fist style of old Karate? . I remember reading years ago how Hung Ga and other more deep stance southern styles traded tiger claws for long fists with the lama school so did those longfists enter Japan`s Karate tradition.

“chin-ku-chi”, “Gamaku” and “Mochimi” or “Muchimi”

type in chin...ku..chi as one word my god man Gene the forum sensors think the Japanese English spelling of the word for explosive force is a derogatory word. sad, I can`t even link the article URL lol
http://asaikarate.com/what-are-*****...uchimi-part-1/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceTQkGxyyN0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENd2WtkuD8s

Sensei Caprino explains chin-ku-chi


This video reminds me of float principle in Bak Mei Jik Bo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zh6UWffitZE



I found out about chin-ku-chi from Karate Nerd lol I enjoyed his series on visiting different schools in Okinawa then his video on Japanese terms put me on a search for a **** dictionary so I can find better research.
Karate Nerd in Okinawa
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Co5hmz7mb0s

[diego]

Is there a book they give you when you get your black belt with all of the Japanese terms or do you learn these things as they teach Kata? .

Like is there an old book of Japanese Engineering terms for breaking things with your fists.