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Thread: Less mystical talk and more sweat please

  1. #1

    Less mystical talk and more sweat please

    With all the ceremonies ,robe wearing head shaving, bead wearing and pretend righteousness it is easy to forget Shaolin is a kung fu system. Man there is so much bull**** that goes on my favorite expression has become[the only secret is sweat]. Anyway some of yesterdays training, waiting for all the so called experts to tell me how I'm not using the secret methods. Funny ever time I meet some new "Master" here they say the same thing. Every other school sucks and they know the real stuff then you see their 15 year old students perform some purely physical performance form. I'm not saying there isn't a higher level to kung fu but it is laid on thick and 90 percent of the mystical stuff is way overrated, I mean way over rated.Less talking more training from all the know it all masters out there would go a long way.
    Last edited by wiz cool c; 09-15-2017 at 10:30 PM.

  2. #2
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    Agree....sort of

    I believe whatever style you are training in (shaolin, TKD, jiu Jitsu, etc.) is 100% what you make of it. Nothing will ever replace the hours and sweat of training but definitely mind and attitude play just as a important role. Itís natural for teachers and students to say their school is the best, of course.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Songshan View Post
    I believe whatever style you are training in (shaolin, TKD, jiu Jitsu, etc.) is 100% what you make of it. Nothing will ever replace the hours and sweat of training but definitely mind and attitude play just as a important role. It’s natural for teachers and students to say their school is the best, of course.
    I don't know, I don't feel the need to say everyone else sucks, of course I'm not wearing a robe, shaving my heads wearing beads and earning my livelihood off the arts. I'm just a guy who has been doing martial arts for the love of it for the past three decades. Guess that is the difference. This is what seems to be the problem most of these "MASTERS" I'm talking about are earning, but I have yet to see anyone over 18 actually training. Again just my take on it but what do I know.
    Last edited by wiz cool c; 09-24-2017 at 02:59 PM.

  4. #4
    A while back a friend of mine famous fighter Yao Honggang, said he had a friend at the famous Tagou. I was looking for quality Sanda training at the time. So I meet the friend of Yao's the a Tagou coach. He was telling me my teacher sucks and he knowns nothing before he knew who my teacher was

    Another example. The teacher in this video started at the Shaolin Temple when he was 8. He learned a lot of the old school ways. His teacher has a nice school just behind Shaolin. I was brought there a week ago. Eventually he got into the speech about how everyone knowns nothing and they do the real stuff. He had his students perform. Granted it was a really nice performance and in one part they do all person vs person fighting including all kinds of weapons. was nice to see some applications in a demo. Anyway after I am with the teacher in this video,watching some young student training outside. One of the kids is doing a staff form I learned. I mention the name of the form and the teacher in this video says "kind of different than how your teacher taught you with a laugh laugh." This teacher teaches me qin na and I learned forms from another teacher, the two teacher know each other. I said "not really". He starts to go on about how different they are. In reality they are not different. The young kids here focus on Biaoyan 表演 performance. the only difference is they blast it out every time with as much speed and power with little pauses between movements so it looks impressive. Is this such a high level they keep talking about. This teacher's teacher also tried to impress me with his expensive collections of Buddha statues. Later when I was alone with the teacher in the video and he was bragging about his teacher's wealth I mentioned to him[if he really believes in Buddhism, he shouldn't care about wealth so much]

    Another example. The teacher up top in this video is fond of talking a lot about how what he has learned is the real deal and all others know nothing or are doing it wrong. I can see his point to some degree, but to a much lesser degree than the speeches go into. For example, one time he was going off on a tangent about some basic move in sanda. something I learned maybe 25 years ago, about how you feet should be shoulder width apart or something. Not really that mysterious but got to play the role right. so he has me stand on a line one foot on each side. at one point he kicks me in the arm with some power. I know what his intentions where to knock me to the other side of the line proving his amazing point. thing is I didn't budge. He seemed a little mad and used the thai pad to try and strike/shove me over the line by hitting the side of my arm. Still didn't budge. so wait what was this whole 5 speech about again?

    In the Qin na part of the video you can see a part where he ask me a question. What he is saying is "can you move your feet? what can you do, try something". I then proceed to roll in a direction that allows me to clasp my hand and am in no harm whatsoever within a second or two. Not saying Qin Na is ineffective, if it was I wouldn't want to learn it, just that enough with the nonsense and lets train already.

    Back to the point. The form staff form that the young man was doing was supposed to be so much more advanced than the version I learned. My response to his comment on that was. In a real fight will he be using a staff? Meaning how to you judge what is high level and what is low level? Is it which is more effective in combat? Cause none of the Shaolin students including myself are testing these staff skills in fighting. Is this"high level" better for health? if so where is the proof? and is doing a form full speed and power with no pasuses make it the high level? I don't think so.

    This is where the saying "the only secret is sweet" and "talk is Cheap" become the wisest sayings in martial arts. Not saying there aren't some really great talented student in Songshan,Dengfeng and Shaolin there are. A new school I am doing Sanda/Boji at they are hard core. Just most of the coaches have this mentality, and I never see them train either[the coaches that is].
    Last edited by wiz cool c; 09-24-2017 at 03:56 PM.

  5. #5
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    Are you there to teach or learn?

    Hey Wiz cool c. What you speak of is the very essence and yes mystery of Shaolin Kung Fu. Itís not mystical but rather an undefined gray area. I can relate to you, being a practitioner myself of martial arts for the last 20+ years (gosh am I really that old now?!). I have trained and spent some time with at least 3 of the shaolin masters here in the Houston Texas area schools. I consider them good masters and friends.

    What you will find, based on your post, is the majority of the Shaolin masters think similar to the teacher in your video. I personally have learned 1 shaolin hand form (Xiao Hong Quan) 3 different ways. Each master had a their own reasons for teaching it different and yes Sometimes there was the chatter of other masters teaching it wrong for xyz reasons.

    What I have learned through years is Shaolin is the style that is always evolving. Forms donít always remain the same. You wonít find a source there that will show you what real traditional shaolin is. The staff is one of the 18 traditional weapons of shaolin. Yes, not many people walk around with a staff or use it for fighting but you are going to learn it as pure tradition. Itís all a matter of interpretation if the form is high skill or low skill. Again, there is no definitive answer. For example, I couldnít perform a staff form with the speed and power of a kid 20 years younger than me. Is the kidís staff form a higher level than mine because of this? What if the kid is in a fight and all he has is a staff. If his mind is not trained to be in a full contact fight for his life the staff would be useless. It doesnít mean his skill is any higher than mine. It just depends where his mind is.

    As for the rest, the majority of shaolin masters and their schools will always claim to be better than the other. Itís the nature of the beast in Deng Feng. I chalk it up to the very competitive nature of the Chinese. The shaolin masters are human after all and not all of them want to live a monastic life. Kung Fu is schools are a business.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Songshan View Post
    I personally have learned 1 shaolin hand form (Xiao Hong Quan) 3 different ways. Each master had a their own reasons for teaching it different and yes Sometimes there was the chatter of other masters teaching it wrong for xyz reasons.

    What I have learned through years is Shaolin is the style that is always evolving. Forms donít always remain the same. You wonít find a source there that will show you what real traditional shaolin is.
    Have to disagree with this last line, because you can easily weed out those who don't understand real traditional Shaolin by determining that all they know is one form of, for example, XHQ, when there are in fact 4 sets to it that go with DHQ sets to comprise the full system of Shaolin Hongquan.

    Same goes for other Shaolin "forms" that are actually part of full systems with multiple forms. Most everyone just knows one form and believes they know "traditional Shaolin". Actually, they barely know anything.

    So, it's funny to hear all these guys argue about who has the realist XHQ when they only know 1/4 of it and don't even know the rest exists, never even heard of it. lol

    There are folks over there that do know full systems, though. They are just rare and not at the big commercial schools. But, they are there and can be found.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by wiz cool c View Post
    With all the ceremonies ,robe wearing head shaving, bead wearing and pretend righteousness it is easy to forget Shaolin is a kung fu system. Man there is so much bull**** that goes on my favorite expression has become[the only secret is sweat]. Anyway some of yesterdays training, waiting for all the so called experts to tell me how I'm not using the secret methods. Funny ever time I meet some new "Master" here they say the same thing. Every other school sucks and they know the real stuff then you see their 15 year old students perform some purely physical performance form. I'm not saying there isn't a higher level to kung fu but it is laid on thick and 90 percent of the mystical stuff is way overrated, I mean way over rated.Less talking more training from all the know it all masters out there would go a long way.

    The Straight Left - Jim Driscoll
    http://www.nycsteampunk.com/bartitsu...tCirca1910.pdf

    Lomenchenko Tennis Ball hat


    Lomenchenko Boxing Tennis Ball speed drills is fun lol, hooked a horizontal ball on rope with two holes and hanging vertical rope ball with one hole to my squat rack once I figured out I could set them up a few inches apart and above and below each other for head and gut shots the two tennis balls and rope for seven bucks works better than a hundred dollar speed bag. Great for boxing rounds but you can do any style punches on it from Karate to Bak Mei spinning elbows except if you go too fast your hook punch can catch the metal frame of the squat rack.

    The Straight Left is a good read from Jim Driscoll he mentions your rear right power hand is really your dagger hand the straight left should be cultivated like your main Zorro sword hand that`s where all the Boxing techniques came from..swing clubs to axes to long sword to small sword and pistol to lead jab and rear cross instead of just swing like an american brawler of the 1890s instead of straight punching like a proper British old school Boxer lol...Reading Boxing history in the 1950`s the Russians were more British Straight punchers than the British and here we are with Lomenchenko lol.

    Anyway I thought it was a good read and focusing on the Straight Lead instead of wasting energy on the rear power punch is something I`m working on with boxing combos it`s easy to get excited and miss the ball breaking your knuckle on the squat rack.
    Last edited by diego; 09-26-2017 at 02:52 AM.

  8. #8
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    Another tennis ball hat video I read it was popular in former Soviet Union can`t find any tennis ball hats from the 1890s lol. ball on a rope is cheap and great though.



  9. #9
    that's some good eye hand coordination ,looks difficult

  10. #10
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    for someone to open up and teach you their art... AND let you video it.... only for you to diss them on a forum which they cant even access seems like a pretty a**hole thing to do.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by shanghai-mantis View Post
    for someone to open up and teach you their art... AND let you video it.... only for you to diss them on a forum which they cant even access seems like a pretty a**hole thing to do.
    STFU you don't know **** that goes on here. they will teach anyone that got the money you are living in a kung fu movie fantasy. I have done martial arts more than 30 years I don't earn a penny off it. here it is a business for them. I can say what I want cause it is the truth, and at 46 I still train my ass off daily.I am the one that truly loves the arts, cause I do it for the love of it not for fancy titles and money. you talking that crap like your mouth does all the ****ting
    Last edited by wiz cool c; 10-06-2017 at 06:13 AM.

  12. #12
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    you are a very angry person
    Last edited by shanghai-mantis; 10-07-2017 at 03:31 AM.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by shanghai-mantis View Post
    you are a very angry person

  14. #14
    Just want to get something straight here, I'm just telling it like it is. I train in three separate locations here. Like life you take the good with the bad. One Shifu I train in forms,Shi Suo, and some applications under, another is the Shifu above who teaches me chin na, and I train once a week with a professional Sanda/Bo Ji school here. Now I see a lot of shady stuff that goes on here that the average armchair critic has no clue about, so I feel it is my duty to just be straight up with it. At the same time the art of Shaolin Kung Fu is a great system with so much to offer, and I genuinely like the people I train with. I think the key here is to just be cautious about what people put in your coffee.

    The teacher teaching me chin na here is an easy going friendly guy, but sometimes rants about theory that I don't necessarily hold true in my three decades of MA practice. If someone wants to treat me like a beginner they should be willing to prove their theories, back it up with some proof. My training partner in this video is Xie Bo, he is a good friend an excellent martial artist with a great attitude. In no way shape or form and I badmouthing him. I don't feel I am badmouthing anyone in fact, just stating my honest opinion and I have the experience and knowledge to back up what I am saying. I know a lot of people don't like me here cause of one of two reasons, either they are hurt inside to see someone living the MA dream and they know in their lifetime they wont ,or because I expose the myth or fantasy, that was born from all the films on Chinese kung fu. In the end the only secret is sweat, and white, black or Asian, hair or shaved head, robe or sweat suit it boils down to time on the training floor not the fluff that goes along with it.
    Last edited by wiz cool c; 10-22-2017 at 01:32 AM.

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