Free sparring on kung fu

[Ninjaforever]

Was there the Free sparring on traditional kung fu shaolin, at bodidharma time, and on hung gar, chay lei fu ecc at time of their founders, and is there historical evidence about it. I don' t mean sparring like sport, but like method for try techiniches, on Free way. Many school training only forms, and some school sparring similitaries way to kickboxing, muay thai ecc. How the kung fu sparring is? How I told you Many school training the fighting a way similiar to modern kickboxing ecc. What is the connection beetween forms and fighting? Greetings

[Orion Paximus]

Was there the Free sparring on traditional kung fu shaolin, at bodidharma time, and on hung gar, chay lei fu ecc at time of their founders, and is there historical evidence about it. I don' t mean sparring like sport, but like method for try techiniches, on Free way. Many school training only forms, and some school sparring similitaries way to kickboxing, muay thai ecc. How the kung fu sparring is? How I told you Many school training the fighting a way similiar to modern kickboxing ecc. What is the connection beetween forms and fighting? Greetings

The fact is, most schools who teach forms, have no idea how to apply what is in those forms, so they teach sanda or like you said, more kickboxing oriented sparring. There are some schools that still teach and drill techniques from the forms themselves and encourage their students to practice those same techniques in their sparring.

As in all things, it varies depending on where you go.

In answer to your question, we only have the stories that were passed down and the various found texts to tell us what life in the temple was like in those times. Though what the temple was or wasn't doing shouldn't really matter. Kung Fu was being trained in the barracks and soldier's camps and you can bet they were using it in their sparring.

[Jimbo]

If kung fu was originally created for fighting purposes, it stands to reason that the original emphasis was on solid basics, development (kung, or gong), and application practice, more than forms. Forms are mostly idealized representations of fighting movements, not intended to take the place of development and drilling practices.

There is no solid 'proof' of exactly how anyone fought with kung fu in the 1800s and earlier, except for stories handed down, and even those vary. The only proof that they were effective is that their systems are still around today. If they had fought and lost more than they won, their systems would've been seen as worthless and mostly discarded.

[MightyB]

This...

Forms are mostly idealized representations of fighting movements, not intended to take the place of development and drilling practices.

plus,

Forms can give you insight into the favorite fighting techniques, set ups, and combinations of past masters. You can do this through analyzing the key repetitive movements and combination of movements that are found throughout a system.

A good way to analyze why certain combinations of techniques are repeated is through testing them out in drills and sparring.

[MightyB]

these are my random thoughts lately....

I've been spending a lot of time researching and analyzing Filipino Martial Arts lately which is making me question a lot of my assumptions about Chinese Martial Arts.

For instance, like I posted earlier in this thread - key repetitive movements...

FMA claims it's a war art (as opposed to other martial arts) and the way you know it's a true war art is because it starts with weapons first - bare hands are a last resort. Yet - FMA uses sticks and knives - they claim they're a lineage of Lapu Lapu (famous for killing Magellan), yet the war weapons of their past were similar to other war weapons found everywhere which are: spear, shield, bow & arrow, and blow gun (which you don't find in modern Escrima). This leads credence to the claim that Escrima is a modern martial art which is derived from the street fighters and gangsters of Cebu. It's a modern street art. As a matter of fact, they didn't have forms until they were created and introduced by the Doce Pares club. Forms in FMA are just key repetitive movements that are linked together.

Could this be the case of our Chinese Martial Arts?

Let's examine, again these are my random thoughts -

Earlier footage of martial arts (film clips) are pretty much of street performers doing forms. The early *fight footage from TCMA is pretty underwhelming.
When you look at weapons, the historical war weapons forms (double edged sword, single edge sword, staff, spear, halberd) are common to pretty much all CMA and are very similar. Deviation in the weapons forms happens with uncommon weapons (an example would be a hook sword) which don't have archeological evidence of use in war.

When you start to look at common unarmed martial movements among war arts the world over - it looks like Shuai Jiao, or Ju Jitsu, or Sumo, or Wrestling with basic chin na. These styles of fighting are two person drill based - they don't really have forms.

When you use a dao (single edge sword) the weapon is chambered behind a lead empty hand. Yet - if you ever watch or participate in weapons sparring - no one does that. The blade takes the lead - The empty left hand being in front does make sense though if you were to have a shield. Just something that makes me go hmmmm.

If you reverse grip a knife (blade is down) almost everything in 7* still works in exactly the same way it's traditionally taught, except now it's a whole lot deadlier. And - the right hand lead (common bare-hand fighting stance) now makes more sense (with a knife).

After the boxer rebellion - CMA was almost dead. It was revived by the Chin Woo. The Chin Woo used linear forms based teaching because it was easier to teach groups. They did practice a simulated knife fighting sport in the Chin Woo. Could the simulated knife fighting sport be the *realz?

Maybe TCMA is a modern take on street fighting arts.

[Jimbo]

these are my random thoughts lately....

I've been spending a lot of time researching and analyzing Filipino Martial Arts lately which is making me question a lot of my assumptions about Chinese Martial Arts.

For instance, like I posted earlier in this thread - key repetitive movements...

FMA claims it's a war art (as opposed to other martial arts) and the way you know it's a true war art is because it starts with weapons first - bare hands are a last resort. Yet - FMA uses sticks and knives - they claim they're a lineage of Lapu Lapu (famous for killing Magellan), yet the war weapons of their past were similar to other war weapons found everywhere which are: spear, shield, bow & arrow, and blow gun (which you don't find in modern Escrima). This leads credence to the claim that Escrima is a modern martial art which is derived from the street fighters and gangsters of Cebu. It's a modern street art. As a matter of fact, they didn't have forms until they were created and introduced by the Doce Pares club. Forms in FMA are just key repetitive movements that are linked together.

Could this be the case of our Chinese Martial Arts?

Let's examine, again these are my random thoughts -

Earlier footage of martial arts (film clips) are pretty much of street performers doing forms. The early *fight footage from TCMA is pretty underwhelming.
When you look at weapons, the historical war weapons forms (double edged sword, single edge sword, staff, spear, halberd) are common to pretty much all CMA and are very similar. Deviation in the weapons forms happens with uncommon weapons (an example would be a hook sword) which don't have archeological evidence of use in war.

When you start to look at common unarmed martial movements among war arts the world over - it looks like Shuai Jiao, or Ju Jitsu, or Sumo, or Wrestling with basic chin na. These styles of fighting are two person drill based - they don't really have forms.

When you use a dao (single edge sword) the weapon is chambered behind a lead empty hand. Yet - if you ever watch or participate in weapons sparring - no one does that. The blade takes the lead - The empty left hand being in front does make sense though if you were to have a shield. Just something that makes me go hmmmm.

If you reverse grip a knife (blade is down) almost everything in 7* still works in exactly the same way it's traditionally taught, except now it's a whole lot deadlier. And - the right hand lead (common bare-hand fighting stance) now makes more sense (with a knife).

After the boxer rebellion - CMA was almost dead. It was revived by the Chin Woo. The Chin Woo used linear forms based teaching because it was easier to teach groups. They did practice a simulated knife fighting sport in the Chin Woo. Could the simulated knife fighting sport be the *realz?

Maybe TCMA is a modern take on street fighting arts.

Nice, thoughtful post, MightyB. Makes a lot of sense. Any art designed for a battlefield would have emphasize weaponry appropriate for a battlefield, as opposed to, say, empty-handed fighting. Much of the latter was likely based on weapons techniques, but used more as civilian fighting methods.

[diego]

these are my random thoughts lately....

I've been spending a lot of time researching and analyzing Filipino Martial Arts lately which is making me question a lot of my assumptions about Chinese Martial Arts.

For instance, like I posted earlier in this thread - key repetitive movements...

FMA claims it's a war art (as opposed to other martial arts) and the way you know it's a true war art is because it starts with weapons first - bare hands are a last resort. Yet - FMA uses sticks and knives - they claim they're a lineage of Lapu Lapu (famous for killing Magellan), yet the war weapons of their past were similar to other war weapons found everywhere which are: spear, shield, bow & arrow, and blow gun (which you don't find in modern Escrima). This leads credence to the claim that Escrima is a modern martial art which is derived from the street fighters and gangsters of Cebu. It's a modern street art. As a matter of fact, they didn't have forms until they were created and introduced by the Doce Pares club. Forms in FMA are just key repetitive movements that are linked together.

Could this be the case of our Chinese Martial Arts?

Let's examine, again these are my random thoughts -

Earlier footage of martial arts (film clips) are pretty much of street performers doing forms. The early *fight footage from TCMA is pretty underwhelming.
When you look at weapons, the historical war weapons forms (double edged sword, single edge sword, staff, spear, halberd) are common to pretty much all CMA and are very similar. Deviation in the weapons forms happens with uncommon weapons (an example would be a hook sword) which don't have archeological evidence of use in war.

When you start to look at common unarmed martial movements among war arts the world over - it looks like Shuai Jiao, or Ju Jitsu, or Sumo, or Wrestling with basic chin na. These styles of fighting are two person drill based - they don't really have forms.

When you use a dao (single edge sword) the weapon is chambered behind a lead empty hand. Yet - if you ever watch or participate in weapons sparring - no one does that. The blade takes the lead - The empty left hand being in front does make sense though if you were to have a shield. Just something that makes me go hmmmm.

If you reverse grip a knife (blade is down) almost everything in 7* still works in exactly the same way it's traditionally taught, except now it's a whole lot deadlier. And - the right hand lead (common bare-hand fighting stance) now makes more sense (with a knife).

After the boxer rebellion - CMA was almost dead. It was revived by the Chin Woo. The Chin Woo used linear forms based teaching because it was easier to teach groups. They did practice a simulated knife fighting sport in the Chin Woo. Could the simulated knife fighting sport be the *realz?

Maybe TCMA is a modern take on street fighting arts.

I think a good place to find answers on classical martial arts would be in the history books of the Spanish and Dutch empires who had contact with Asia in the fifteenth century right when the firearm started to replace the knights sword and dagger.

Like before Henry the eighth it's all King Arthur and Robin Hood Swords vs cross bows and shield in armor...Then for three hundred years the Royal Navy ruled the seas with the cannon and hand pistol. By cowboy days when the six shooter and John Wayne Rifle was popular Asian Martial arts are being cataloged to what we know now with the popularity of styles such as Wing Chun, Hung Gar/Choi Li Fut, Tai Chi/ Ba Gua.


Boxing has Straight, Upcut, Hook/overhead,
Muay Thai Elbows, Knees and Round/Front kicks.
Bak Mei likes to grab and punch or stab with short power.
Hop Gar Crane likes to angle and hit with full weight at long range to follow up with stomping and sweeping kicks/throws.

Tai Chi likes to wave your hands all fancy so you don't drop your sword lol, and so on.

So looking at Southern Shaolin forms they like to use short power like Wing Chun or Long Fists like Choi Li Fut..they like to drop to low squat and block kicks or swinging staff's and jumping up with spin kicks then dropping with low sweep kicks...they march in with Horse, Bow and twist stance and change angles with Cat and One legged stance for defense against kicks or turning to face a second attacker...forms like to go through all those motions taking up the whole training floor shadowboxing against two to eight attackers.

Boxers and Kickboxers like to circle the ring and throw two-six punch Form combo's with a variety of styles they can go Cross guard like Foreman and Archie Moore or fight side on like Ali and Mayweather or go Peek a boo like Tyson and Patterson.


It would be interesting to see the fighting manual for the Dutch Navy when Japan opened up for trade with them a few hundred years ago and just like modern boxing has at least ten styles for the few basic punches in combination it's kind of interesting Chinese Martial Art forms went from military drills to physical culture like take USA Army fight manual and combine it with traditional North American Aboriginal tribal dances like animal costumes or Ghost dance or whatever...combine those two for a thousand years and it would morph into styles of fighting like Capoeira has dance with kick box...China had a huge population and centuries to refine the methods.

[David Jamieson]

The fact is, most schools who teach forms, have no idea how to apply what is in those forms, so they teach sanda or like you said, more kickboxing oriented sparring. There are some schools that still teach and drill techniques from the forms themselves and encourage their students to practice those same techniques in their sparring.

As in all things, it varies depending on where you go.

In answer to your question, we only have the stories that were passed down and the various found texts to tell us what life in the temple was like in those times. Though what the temple was or wasn't doing shouldn't really matter. Kung Fu was being trained in the barracks and soldier's camps and you can bet they were using it in their sparring.

That's a weird assumption because really, if you don't know what the forms mean and how to take them apart and apply, then what the heck are you doing teaching?

The temple has paintings from a few hundred years ago that plainly show exactly what it is that you are asking about.

Pugilism isn't really regarded as a war art anyway, so weapons and military practicality had more value as you go further back.

Empty hand fighting is only part of what making violence is about in full scope anyway.

[Orion Paximus]

That's a weird assumption because really, if you don't know what the forms mean and how to take them apart and apply, then what the heck are you doing teaching?

Right. We're not saying different things here.

[David Jamieson]

Right. We're not saying different things here.

well, except that you say "most schools" do this. That is not true so much in my experience and most certainly is not the meat and potatoes of it these days where we are finally at the put up or shut up stage of things.

The first thing people do coming in my door is glove up and lets see what you got.

The reason for this is to get understanding immediately of what needs work. (Hint, often people are leg weak, oddly)

Anyway, one or two three minute rounds and it's not hard to assess where a person really needs to work in their martial skills.

I find that this is an effective means to assess and understand where a person is at and how to point them in the right direction to attaining the skills they would like to attain.

If someone wants fully full on wushu for performance and grading, I am not their guy and I will make it clear. I'm a traditional Kung Fu guy that takes only private adult students willing to work on themselves.

Glove em up first thing and you learn a lot. That is for sure. There is no room for arrogance when that is happening. Learn learn learn and keep learning.

[Ninjaforever]

well, except that you say "most schools" do this. That is not true so much in my experience and most certainly is not the meat and potatoes of it these days where we are finally at the put up or shut up stage of things.

The first thing people do coming in my door is glove up and lets see what you got.

The reason for this is to get understanding immediately of what needs work. (Hint, often people are leg weak, oddly)

Anyway, one or two three minute rounds and it's not hard to assess where a person really needs to work in their martial skills.

I find that this is an effective means to assess and understand where a person is at and how to point them in the right direction to attaining the skills they would like to attain.

If someone wants fully full on wushu for performance and grading, I am not their guy and I will make it clear. I'm a traditional Kung Fu guy that takes only private adult students willing to work on themselves.

Glove em up first thing and you learn a lot. That is for sure. There is no room for arrogance when that is happening. Learn learn learn and keep learning.

Yes ok! How free sparring in kung fu look like? How can you apply the stance Gon bu, Putu etc. etc,on free sparring match? What are the difference beetween kung fu, and kickboxing? Is there some video who you can show me?