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Thread: MMA vs. Street fighting

  1. #1
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    MMA vs. Street fighting

    OK I'm sorry to make another thread on this, but I noticed something this weekend that I thought was very interesting regarding this subject, and I didn't think it really fit into any of the other threads on here...I also had been wanting to share some of my training experiences in a "no-nonsense," street oriented system a few years ago...

    Many people that say MMA is so different from "real fighting" point to the fact that eye and groin attacks are prohibited by MMA rules...however, we saw both of these things happen at UFC 52, and in one case the fight wasn't even stopped, as the ref didn't see the accidental low blow...what's my point? It's that sport fighters often accidentally kick/knee eachother in the groin or poke eachother in the eyes, so I would think that if they INTENDED TO DO SO, they could do it on the street...also consider the fact that many sport fighters practice kicks to the inside of the thigh...all they have to do is kick a few inches higher to kick the guys groin...again, they sometimes do accidentally kick eachother there, so how hard could it be for them to do it intentionally?

    Secondly, as I said before, I trained for about a decade in a reality-oriented martial art, under the guidance of people that had served in the armed forces and even Vietnam...I eventually left this art to pursue a more sport-oriented art, for the single goal of learning to defend myself on the street! I found that since we didn't spend too much time practicing our techniques against a resisting opponent, that I had trouble when we actually did...and that goes for the techniques we COULD practice against a resisting opponent...I can only assume that I would have had even more trouble with our "deadly" techniques, since I never could really practice those at all (more than put my hand to the guys throat)...anyway, I guess another point I am trying to make here is that let's say we have two guys fighting, one guy does not worry about sport fighting, so he practices throat attacks by putting his hand close to a guys throat, or touching it very gently...the other guy is a sport fighter, and has never hit anyone in the throat before...BUT AHA! Neither has the reality fighter! He's only simulated this movement while not really hurting his training partner! So who do you want to put your money on in a street fight, a guy that has practiced hitting the dude's throat by gently putting his hand up there, or a guy that has practiced punching someone in the chin at full speed and force, and just needs to punch a few inches lower to attack the guy's throat? Or a guy who has practice groin kicks by stopping his kick 6 inches from the guys groin, or a guy who has practiced leg kicks at full force and just needs to kick a few inches higher to attack someone's groin?

    People that practice combat sports are restricted by rules, its true, but at least they can practice what they can do at full speed and force, against a resisting opponent...and it's not like people that don't compete in sports kick eachother in the groin at full blast when they train...

    Having said all that, I will also say I have no street fights, so I am very open to comments and suggestions...thank you for taking the time to read this lengthy post...
    Last edited by Akhilleus; 04-19-2005 at 12:23 AM.
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  2. #2
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    this would have been a decent post for your side of the argument like 5 years ago, but i do understand not everyones been around that long.
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    Sure, a lot of what I am saying has been said many times before...however, one point I was trying to make that I hadn't heard before was:

    Take the attacks that most people use as examples when talking about how "unrealistic" combat sports are...I have seen these "illegal" techniques occur more frequently in the ring or cage than I have in actual street fights I have witnessed or seen video clips of...
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  4. #4
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    Didn't they actually puit an MMA guy in Streetfighter or am I thinking Tekken? I know what's his name, the gigantic black dude whose name starts with M is in Tekken but I thought there was an MMA guy in Streetfighter now?
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    So you're saying that a sport fighter would be more effective on the street than someone who has trained in deadly techniques. Your reasoning is, the sport fighter would be more effective because they practice full contact where the person who trains in deadly techniques can't actually practice those techniques.

    All of these hypothetical situations about what is more effective on the street are really getting old. Why are people so obsessed with with what or what isn't effective on the street?

    Let's say I get in a "Street Fight" with some MMA dude and this guy beats the tar out of me and leaves me on the street. A few minutes later I stumble to my car, drive around the block, see the MMA dude and run him down. Who won the fight? My point is, you can't say this or that will be more effective on the street because there are too many variables.

    Now if the MMA dude and I square off in a ring and fight and he wins. Then there is no question. The rules of fighting in the ring level the playing field and make it a fair fight.

    To me fighting and winning in the ring is more impressive than street fighting because the variables are eliminated.
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    There was a book on fencing written in the 1700's called 'secrets of the sword' that presented this discussion as a series of drawing room discussions.

    Here is the rub:

    Without free-fighting, you can practice moves that are too dangerous to use freely on training partners.

    With free-fighting you develop the actual 'body-knowledge' of how to use your system.

    If you train to exclusively win in free-fighting, you start to develop technique that 'scores' rather than being purely decisive in a fight. This builds bad habits.

    Without it, you may find yourself why your moves didn't work.

    In my day San Da/San shou rules were about the most open. To supplement this I continued to randori with Judo players, even though I'd left Judo for Shuai Chiao. (there are just more people doing Judo, so you get more variety)

    Todays MMA rules are good rules. They are definitely for the young (I think I pulled a muscle in my man-tit Sunday), but they are not so restrictive that you can't see the dangerous stuff.

    In China, whenever someone wanted to sound bad-@ss, they would say, 'oh we beat some shuai-chiao guys'. The reason, is that shuai-chiao has always involved free-fighting of a sort, so the players develop shuai-fa - the body skill to actually defeat a skilled, resisting opponent.

    The danger with sporting is you can LOSE all the good stuff for the sake of sport. Just like what happened to fencing. But I don't think fisticuffs/wrestling/small weapons work is as likely to go out of style as carrying a big sword...

    A while back I taught a class on clinch work to a guy Carlos Gracie calls 'unbeatable' - he's a really good, scary guy - a little green, but I don't want to fight him. After a little mat time with him, I can garentee that in many instances in the street he is MORE dangerous because of his MMA experience.

    Can you learn good skills without a lot of free-fighting? I think so. Will you be as prepared as if you did some sport fighting? No. If all you do is practice for sport will you be truly prepared? No.

    It's all about understanding your goals, and testing your results, without getting off your ai priori assumptions.
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  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Akhilleus
    Many people that say MMA is so different from "real fighting" point to the fact that eye and groin attacks are prohibited by MMA rules...however, we saw both of these things happen at UFC 52, and in one case the fight wasn't even stopped, as the ref didn't see the accidental low blow...what's my point? It's that sport fighters often accidentally kick/knee eachother in the groin or poke eachother in the eyes, so I would think that if they INTENDED TO DO SO, they could do it on the street...also consider the fact that many sport fighters practice kicks to the inside of the thigh...all they have to do is kick a few inches higher to kick the guys groin...again, they sometimes do accidentally kick eachother there, so how hard could it be for them to do it intentionally?

    the inside of the thigh is a favorite target of mine, as I've got a quick lead roundhouse.

    Anyhoo, I've posted this before, but I asked royce about the eye gouge thing. he told me that in the early UFC, eye and groin strikes were allowable. BUT, if they were done, the fighter would get fined... he would still win the match though, if his opponent couldn't continue because of it.
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  8. #8
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    "The street" consists of everyone here plus everyone else .... it's everybody.

    Some of those guys are MMAists that train stand up striking, kicking, clinching and ground pounding and locking .... on top of that, to fight someone regularly with those little gloves makes ya kind of comfortable or at least familiar with this kind of violence.

    If I had a choice, I'd rather fight the other "street fighters" who aren't trained like this. They might be tough, but everyone has a line that when crossed, they get real tough too.

    Street fighting is dangerous. I'm guessing it's more dangerous when the other guy is skilled on top of no rules/weapons/etc.

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    I think an average mma fighter would fair a better chance then an average tckf guy. imo.
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    Quotes from Chief Fox:

    "So you're saying that a sport fighter would be more effective on the street than someone who has trained in deadly techniques. Your reasoning is, the sport fighter would be more effective because they practice full contact where the person who trains in deadly techniques can't actually practice those techniques."

    Yeah, that was one way in which I looked at this debate...but I myself haven't really made up my mind...like I said I don't have any streetfighting experience...

    "All of these hypothetical situations about what is more effective on the street are really getting old. Why are people so obsessed with with what or what isn't effective on the street?"

    True they are getting very old...I'm sorry I started another thread on this done-to-death topic, but hey! Look at all the great joke-threads I, and others, helped inspire!

    Anyway thanks for the replies guys...I guess in retrospect this isn't terribly important to me, as I don't plan on getting into any fights any time soon...
    Last edited by Akhilleus; 04-20-2005 at 08:22 AM.
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  11. #11
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    If I want to train throat grabs full-speed in a free-sparring situation, I train throat grabs, full speed and with as much pressure as is safe.

    If I want to train throat strikes full-speed in a free-sparring situation, I can't but I can train strikes, full-speed to the face.

    Or I can train a little slower than full-speed, stopping the strike/grab at the throat. If I can pull this off in a full-speed free-sparring situation (when it isn't full-speed, against somebody who is), I don't see why I couldn't pull it off in the street.

    Since I want the opportunity to be able to train both ways, I can find both kinds of teachers, or I can get together with classmates and go at it.

    Don't see a problem. The guy I put my money on is the guy who has the most training in one or more of these relatively realistic set-ups. If it's one or the other, could be either... and will of course (as threads from a couple of years ago worked out) be down to many many different factors, not only training. Sorry, it's boring but true, no?!

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    OK so it sounds like everything I have said here as already been said years before...which is surprising since UFC 52 occured last weekend and I used that event to support one side of the argument...anyway like I said I myself am not overly concerned with this whole debate, I only posted my 2 cents b/c there were people debating this, and I thought I had some new evidence to bring to the table...in other words, if what I am saying is so old, I'll be glad to stop, as I was only posting it in hopes of giving others some new insight...
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    What MS2 said, but let me simplify it further.

    We all train with rules. The argument always seems to be about which set of rules for training is better.
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Merryprankster
    What MS2 said, but let me simplify it further.

    We all train with rules. The argument always seems to be about which set of rules for training is better.


    and how restrictive those rules can be.
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  15. #15
    And Akhilleus (no offense) is applying rules to street fighting as if it would only be one on one with both people unarmed. Physically in any fight the better trained, better conditioned fighter will win as long as it stays in the narrow confines of one on one. But **** happens and the other guy may pull a gun ( as with Alex Gong) or a knife (which you may or may not see) or have a friend with a brick ready to smash your head. We all end up dealing with the same issues no matter what arts we practice.
    I quit after getting my first black belt because the school I was a part of was in the process of lowering their standards A painfully honest KC Elbows

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    Dam nit... it made sense when it was running through my head.

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