24 Simplified Set

[cha kuen]

I'm learning the basic simplified Yang 24 form. What percentage would you say that the simplified set has of the long set? Maybe 50% of the concepts?

[Laughing Cow]

Are you talking the PRC(Beijing) 24 form??

As far as I know the shortest actual yang form is the CMC 37 one.
The 24 should only lack the repetitions contained in the long forms.

But all the concepts & principles should be there, regardless of the lenght of the form.

I can always ask my sihing for more details he teaches the Beijing 24 at the kwoon.

Cheers.

[GLW]

The simplified 24 Posture routine is based in large part on Yang style but is NOT a Yang form. It has a lot of similarities but a lot of differences.

It was intended to be a starting point and set a lot of basic foundations while removing some of the more stressful moves...by that I mean those moves that might put a joint like the knee in danger if done incorrectly.

Similarities...

Part horse's mane...arms are similar..stepping is different in that Yang does not employ the rock back and then step forward. This step is used in 24 for this, brush knee etc...

Brush knee...same except for the rock step.

White Crane...the arms are in a slightly different position and hte method to get to it is different.

Step back and whirl arms...the timing is different and 24 allows for a large leg raise.

Grasp Sparrow's Tail...similar in flow but very different in the details.

Gao Tan Ma...shifts forward in 24 and sits back in Yang.

Wave hands...the combination of stepping from side of the body is different as are the hand details.

Lower snake body...the stance is a true crouch stance in 24 and the foot does not shift as well as the hand turn facing you instead of staying palm out...

Fair lady... no 4 directions...other than that very similar.

Pick up needle ...similar but some minor details are different.

Fan through back...almost the same.

Bai Lan Chui - very different.

embrace tiger...different weight and emphasis...

So...there are enough differences to see that is is not exactly a Yang form.

[David Jamieson]

Yang short form I learned has 36 postures (37 in some schools)

Yang Long form I learned has 108.

I never learned any other Yang stuff besides these two forms.

The short is an abbreviation of the long with much of the same content but less repitition on left and right sides. Kinda like if you didn't have enough time to do the long, you could do the short and still get your training in.

cheers

[redfist]

tai chi is not a form it is a concept,the order of movements or amount does not matter,

what does matter is the quality and consistancy of your practice,

100%,behind every motion,if i must use a word.

the entire 108 is represented in the 24 form,
depends on your view.

[apham4]

I really wouldn't go so far as to say that the entire 108 traditional set is represented in the modern 24 set. I used to train wushu for some time before getting some knee injuries and then moved to training in taiji. I was initially exposed to what I tend to call modern or beijing style taiji, but I've come to start referring to it as wushu-taiji due to the similarities between the modern set (24,48, etc) and the modern wushu competition routines. The body mechanics for both of these tend to be the same in stance and posture with some slight differences in the wushu-taiji in that a bit more emphasis is placed on full/empty, open/close, etc.

I agree with redfist in that taiji could be considered as a "concept" or a "set of principles". I would also agree with redfist that the order of movement is not as important as the body mechanics and the structural integrity of each movement, but from my own experience and observation of having trained in over 3 years or wushu-taiji, that it really depends on the instructor. For instance, if the instructor is trained on taiji principles, you'll receive a different take as opposed to the instructor being trained in "competition style". To me, it really depends on what you're looking for.

Initially, I was very happy studying the competition style (wushu-taiji) and enjoyed it immensely due to the work involved in maintaining low postures and such. I probably would have continued training in wushu-taiji until I had to relocate for work. In doing so, I found and trained with a former national korean gold medalist in taiji. To me, it just got to the point that a lot of the movements in the "competition set" are done for "aesthetic appeal" without too many thoughts on structural integrity and martial application. To me, once you've trained in the competition sets for some time, it just get's to the point where you're learning different choreography.

This led me to my current instructor and he teaches a more traditional yang style form that he learned from TT Liang. He's actually one of the few "disciples" of Liang. Anyhow, he refers to it as the 150 yang long form but it's also known as the Yang 88, 103, or 108, depending on counting conventions. Initially, I picked up on the sequence pretty well, but when it got done to the nitty gritty on details and principles, it was a whole world apart from the instruction given by the "former gold medalist". I'm very happy that I've found my current instructor.

This topic actually reminded me of an article that Paul Lam wrote in regards to the 24 form. I'll paste a few snippets below:

==========================
It is well understood that not many people are willing or able to spend two hours per day to practise Tai Chi. Since most practitioners use Tai Chi for health improvement, there is no need for doing this. This is not to say the fundamental principles and the intrinsic power of the art should be changed.

In order to popularise Tai Chi; the Chinese National Sports Committee had authorised the country's four most renowned Tai Chi experts to compose The 24 Forms. Based mainly on the Yang style, and by eliminating many repetitions and retaining most of the essential principles of Tai Chi, the 88 Forms was condensed to only 24 Forms. The 24 Forms is easier to learn, to remember and practice, the whole set takes around five minutes. A busy person can do three rounds in 20 minutes (including warm up exercises). This will be adequate to improve and maintain good health. Most clinical studies on the many health benefits of Tai Chi are based on people practising this set of Forms. The 24 Forms very quickly became the most popular Forms in the world.

From the following source
==========================

In any case, I think the modern sets are good for people to get an introduction to taiji. To me, without incorporating the internal principles of taiji, forms are just empty movements tied together in a nice choreography. IMO, taiji incorporates mind/body/spirit which could lead to the integration of meditation/health/martial. I would try to look for something that incorporates all of these aspects.

Just my thoughts.. HTH.
A.

[Laughing Cow]

My experience is similar to apham4.

My first IMA style was "health orientated" even though we did push hands and weapons training too.

My current Sifu lays heavy enphasis on the TJQ principles and basics.

It is like learning to swim in a small Pond and than trying to swim in the ocean.

Progress now feels a lot slower, but the training is a lot tougher.
Healthwise I feel the same benefit, but the martial side and understanding of what goes into correct TJQ is mindblowing.

Just some thoughts.

[GLW]

The counting of 88 postures is NOT a traditional set. There IS an 88 Posture set that was created by Li Tianjie. It is very much a copy of Yang Chengfu's traditional routine with some modifications.

If it were in any other area, the 88 would be classified as an example of plagarism. In a college setting, it would get a student expelled or a professor fired - plagarism is basically intellectual theft.

As for being in T. T. Liang's lineage, that is Cheng Manching's set. It is in itself different from Classical Yang form. In fact, there are enough differences that many consider it s completely different style similar to classifying Wu style as different from Yang.

You also have the folks doing GuangPing variation of Yang style and they are quickly become their own style....

[wujimon]

Hi GLW, thanks for the info regarding the 88 set. Anyhow, I always thought the long sets were the same but differed in counting.

In regards to TT Liang's lineage, I've been referencing the long form in comparison to the 103 done by Yang Zhenduo and I'd have to say they are pretty different. Some of the transitional posture of the CMC form have been taken out (shoulder push, extra brush knee/twist steps, etc). In addition, a lot of the hand posture and frame is a bit different and I would contribute it due to it coming from CMC. Good points tho, GLW. I think I will have to modify my profile to reflect that it is different from the yang family set.

Would you consider the set done by Yang Zhenduo and Yan Jun to be the traditional yang set? Do you know if the Tung (Dong) family set is similar to this? It's pretty interesting how many different variations within the labeled "traditional" sets. Good info and points

[GLW]

The routine that Dong, Yang Zhenduo, and Fu Zhongwen all do/did was Yang Chengfu's. In China, it is most commonly referred to as 85 Posture Yang Style.

Supposedly, Cheng Manching learned the same routine. He claimed to have learned from Yang Chengfu and then from others later. His claim about Yang Chengfu is not disputed by the Yang lineage holders such as Fu Zhongwen or Yang Zhenduo...but the amount of time and the closeness of the relationship with YCF has been (there was an article in Tai Chi magazine about this a couple of years ago.).

Dong claimed to have been working on a Yang Fast form with Yang Chengfu. He maintained that the routine was not quite finished and so he completed it. Therefore, those learning from the Dong lineage do the barehand, sword, saber, and Fast barehand.

Fu Zhongwen, Yang Zhenduo, and others maintain that the fast set was Dong's invention and that there is not one in Yang from YCF. The claim from Yang Zhenduo is dubious given his age when his father, YCF, died (9 or 10 if memory serves). The statement from Fu supporting this lends credence to Yang Zhenduo's because Fu travelled a lot with Yang, was quite close to him, and was related via marriage as a sort of nephew.

Yang Zhenduo physically resembles his father. However, while many will look at the postures in pictures from YCF and say that they are very very close, there are others who reportedly saw YCF do the routines that maintain that Fu Zhongwen was more exacting and faithful to the way YCF did the routines. In fact, in earlier years (1950's or so), a common statement meant to play down Fu was that he did NOT add anything to the system but merely strove very well to emulate his teacher. Of course, Fu took that as a compliment because that was exactly what he tried to do.

Fu's body build, while not as large as YCF, was still close enough to YSF's so that his methods could indeed look a lot like his teachers.

Dong, on the other hand, was slimmer...and had other martial background as well. So, is the difference between the two accounted for simply by personality, body build, or previous learning and other influences...who knows.

They are all doing the same routine but the flavor is a bit different for each one.

Cheng Manching, however, is very different. I have seen footage of him doing the 85 posture YCF routine. His flavor was not as strong or as solid as the other three. What it was like in person...can't say....it is at this point more of a matter of personal preference and aesthetics.

An interesting note.... Yang Chengfu at one time after finalizing the 85 posture Yang routine was quoted as stating that he felt to add anything to the set would be redundant (mind you I AM paraphrasing) and to take anything more out or shorten it would lessen the value and therefore be disastrous to the routine. He seemed to have felt that it was about as good as it could get.

In that light, Fu Zhongwen and Dong Yinjie, to my knowledge, never changed or created a shortened form. Dong had the fast set...but that is in addition to the long one.

Yang Zhenduo has created a shortened competition set...but he maintains that the long form is the one to train and that the short one is merely for competition and fun.

Cheng Manching created his 37 posture (or whtever the number) and once he had his shorter set or sets, is reported to have pretty much stopped working with the long form. Those in this lineage most often do NOT know the long set and if they do, most likely learned it from another lineage.

[redfist]

to add,

traditionally 108 is used as a numeration to siginify completion,therefore the 85 is often refered to as the 108,
nothing to do with the number of movements in the actual form.

also,the lineage inheritor was the only one to receive the complete transmission of methods,known as chung moon,and his personnel form would be the 108.

this is very rarely seen in modern times.

chen wei ming developed the 24 yang form around1955/56.he was the first disciple of yang chen fu.

yang zhen do and yang jun teach their version of the yang style
very percisely,of excellent quality,what you would expect from lineage holders,
i reccomend attending a seminar with them,as far as form instruction goes, i feel anyone training yang style would come away satisfied.

[JAZA]

I heard from a Fu Zhongwen disciple that he was hard as steel, and his movements very soft, and that he was always kidding like a little boy.

[GLW]

The counting of 85 does actually refer to the number of movements. Where the confusion on that one comes in is that things like Brush Knee are referred to as Brush Knee on both sides (1 movement) instead of 2 or 3.

Fu Zhongwen's son as a book out that ennumerates the postures in the 85 count. For the same routine, I have seen 103, 104, 108 and a couple of other strange numbers.

As for Fu Zhongwen personally, he was a very congenial person. Truly liked coconut milk He was bothered by a number of people who had recently come to the west claiming he was their teacher when all they ever really did was attend a seminar and have a group picture with him.

[Brad]

So who're some Fu Zhongwen's "top" students living today?

[wujimon]

Thanks for the post. I really enjoyed reading the info. I've heard a similar acct regarding CMC that you had mentioned. But from what I heard, there's been some controversy as to how long CMC spent with YCF. In addition, I've heard there are some disputes regarding the level of instruction that CMC received from YCF. But in any case, I agree with your notion regarding that it's a matter of preference and aestethics. My friend who has spent a great deal of time training in the traditional yang stye via the Dong lineage told me to be weary or of the postures.

I'm kind of curious since you mentioned that since CMC created the shorter set, then it makes me wonder how TT Liang stuck with the longer set. The sequence is very close to that of Yang Zhenduo with some slight differences in posture (YZD's looking much more "fuller"). I was under the assumption that Liang trained with CMC in Taiwan and that he practiced with him then. I've heard that are differences between CMC's US students and his taiwanese students and just assumed that to be the case here. I guess since Liang's long form is different from YZD's, then it must've been the case that either CMC added to it or that Liang supplmented his training elsewhere. Kind of makes you wonder.

Just wanted to add a link that has some compartive yang postures between YCF and the members of the Dong family.

Nice discussion