Happy Thanksgiving

[Drake]

however i think its weird to stuff things up a turkeys ass, so i dont eat turkey.

Maybe you shouldn't knock it until you try it. Bread and herbs shoved up a turkey's ass is DELICIOUS.

[GLW]

Actually, it is NOT that far removed.

Native Americans were only given the right to vote in 1924. However, that did not apply to all states. Oklahoma did not extend voting rights to Natives (and they had a lot on the reservations there) until the mid 1930's.

You may actually know someone who was directly affected by these policies.

For example, my own father was born on or as close to on as you can get to the reservation. His mother, being 7/8 Sauk, could not vote until my father was around 10 or 11 years old.

During that time, they had a policy of assimilation of the native children by removing the children from their families whenever possible. It was the 1930's - Depression times and the Dirty 30's - dust bowl. So, thousands of children were taken from their home for the sin of being a 'poor Indian'.

My father, uncle, and aunt were of these number. There were other children in the home but they were not removed. I did not meet my biological grandmother until I was 16 years old. I still have no means of getting in touch with any part of my father's biological family. And this was a family that had their land stolen through an illegal treaty in the 1830's....moved to a couple of different reservations and eventually ended up in Oklahoma.

So, there are people alive today who have been directly affected by the US govt.'s policies and actions against the indigenous peoples...and No, it did not end with the Indian wars but continued on through the 1940's, 1950's and in some places, even beyond that.

Yep... I pig out on turkey and enjoy the day off...but the idea of Thanksgiving has a non-meaning in my home.

[David Jamieson]

1961 is when Natives finally got to vote in Canada.

As long as there is a reserve system and handouts, there will be no assimilation and no real progress for native peoples.

They can be part of the greater society, that is known. they can still continue to carry their traditions forward, but every generation makes mistakes as much as they make great things happen.

dwelling on the mistakes of a half century ago or a century or 2 centuries is a waste of time. Address them, seek a solution, if none is found, move on to something else.

[rett]

Think of the Indians and then think about multiculturalism and our sacred duty to accept immigrants...

[David Jamieson]

Think of the Indians and then think about multiculturalism and our sacred duty to accept immigrants...

Yes, as a Canadian, we have both and one may very well be used to justify the other or temper it depending on the politics du jour.

[GLW]

"1961 is when Natives finally got to vote in Canada."


So, is Thanksgiving set on the 4th Thursday of November now a Canadian holiday? Yours is the second Monday in October and is actually stated as being designed as "A Day of General Thanksgiving to Almighty God for the bountiful harvest with which Canada has been blessed" in short, it is a Harvest Day celebration. A bit different but not completely. Still, the discussion here centers on the November day called Thanksgiving...a uniquely American (as in USA) holiday.

"As long as there is a reserve system and handouts, there will be no assimilation and no real progress for native peoples."

Sloppy language. While some of what is given IS a handout, other aspects of it are REPARATIONS. Big difference there.

Assimilation - and WHY should every minority culture be forced to assimilate. There is a choice here and you are assuming that your sensibilities and values are in some way superior than theirs.

Progress - who defines progress? While better medicine and more food, that type of thing can be called progress, there is an intangible that has to do with values and quality of life.

Assimilation, which you seem to think is desirable, is easy if you don't look too different, don't keep your roots and original culture in any form that is recognized by the majority society, and don't make waves. Is this truly desirable for all? Should it not be a choice? What about those who were given no choice - the ones who were forced to assimilate.

Logical extreme, in the 1960s, there were grade school teachers who believed that left-handed children were somehow dysfunctional. They thought they were doing a good thing by forcing the child to learn to be right-hand dominant. Many of these kids had OTHER problems in school after this caused by the methods employed. So, simple ideas such as progress and assimilation can be the start of strange roads.


"They can be part of the greater society, that is known. they can still continue to carry their traditions forward, but every generation makes mistakes as much as they make great things happen."


Greater society. Did you mean larger or dominant society? That phrase is a loaded one with verbal implications that may not be intended. The "greater society" has rarely been receptive of carrying traditions from a previous culture forward. In fact, the "greater society" usually puts up some major impediments to doing just that.

Mistakes, yes they do happen, have happened, and will happen. The big issue here is the inability to actually own up to a mistake or make amends for it. This is sort of like an alcoholic in a 12 step program not working the steps where they have to admit their addiction and then where they have to deal with the aftermath of their addiction on others. Basically, in that sense, it does not work. So, since a society is made up of people, it is dubious that not working these steps as a society will lead to other problems as well.


"dwelling on the mistakes of a half century ago or a century or 2 centuries is a waste of time. Address them, seek a solution, if none is found, move on to something else."


Even if the impact of those mistakes are still occurring? Sorry, but that logic is faulty. Simple example. Due to their "mistakes" and their attempts to assimilate a culture by force, there are people with no knowledge of their genetic history. Not knowing family medical history can and does have a signifcant impact in treatment for things like heart disease, mental illness, and so on. This lack of family history is bad enough when it happens naturally but when it is due to a government sanctioned and executed program, there are real results and problems that are 100% avoidable.

To not remember the mistakes of the past is to ensure that they will be repeated. (to paraphrase) Likewise, to not hold people accountable for their actions will ensure that things will be done with a blind eye to consequences.

[David Jamieson]

Canada = Greater than you think, worse than you know.

Canadians have trouble with this.Then they have more trouble when you point out the really bad things they don't know. most are apoplectic by the time you get to the third or forth line item, usually something about a canadian controlled mining company murdering locals in an overseas venture....

it's brutal at times. never mind the huge environmental damage we are now doing in our western provinces for the sake of some dollars. The Tar sands are the most environmentally non-viable project ever and it's sold as a green pursuit up here. Ridiculous.

well, stupid really.

[rett]

Yes, as a Canadian, we have both ....

I'd say the Indians have you... but okay

[David Jamieson]

I'd say the Indians have you... but okay

what are you? some kind of lefty? lol.
No, Canada is a country that is sovereign and not Native in ownership anymore.

I think these issues are false constructs for the most part and the real underlying problem is racism that bars natives from weaving in and the rest of the culture from weaving them in. The indian act and reserve system ostracizes natives further no matter what people might think is advantageous to them.

It's been a long time, it's silly and we should all integrate.
If we can do it with everyone else from around the world, they can include themselves in as well and our governments should be opening that process and the people through their behaviours should support that integration.

[Syn7]

i feel no guilt because im not white.

however i think its weird to stuff things up a turkeys ass, so i dont eat turkey.

do you feel guilty for all the tribes and nations the chinese wiped out?

[Syn7]

1961 is when Natives finally got to vote in Canada.

As long as there is a reserve system and handouts, there will be no assimilation and no real progress for native peoples.

They can be part of the greater society, that is known. they can still continue to carry their traditions forward, but every generation makes mistakes as much as they make great things happen.

dwelling on the mistakes of a half century ago or a century or 2 centuries is a waste of time. Address them, seek a solution, if none is found, move on to something else.

yeah and they didnt close the last residential school until 1986.


I don't think we should all leave or anything, but how do you figure they can be who they were? thats gone, over. especially for migratory tribes.

[Hardwork108]

Oh right because your nation filled with spaniards who killed off the indians like no ones business is way better and has the higher moral ground in regards to what happened right?

First of all, I am not taking a higher moral ground. Not the way you think! Secondly, two (or more, as the case is) wrongs, do not make a right!

gimme a break. lol.

Not yet!

Maybe if you lived in Tongo or something your vilification would have some weight, but you live in a country that has no upper hand, no better morality and certainly not a remarkable humanistic society as it is.

Well, as you may, (or probably not) know, the South American mass murder bing was limited to her natives, as well as some early wars. So, they cans still look down on their Northern Hemisphere neighbors (together with Europe) from a considerably higher moral ground. That is because the latter are still robbing, pillaging and mass murdering their way through some of the minerally richest countries on the planet, albeit under a false slogan of "we are civilized democratic countries, that defend the right of justice and freedom"! Yes, it is Hitler revisited, but with a glassy eyed, thinly disguised, uncaring smile.

Actually, the "North" has a great job in "promoting" Democracy down here, by time and again overthrowing democratically elected governments and replacing them with psychopathic dictators, more or less with the same psychopathic MO as the Northern, "First World" country Presidents and Prime Ministers, but of course, minus the plastic "caring" smiles......

So yes, as "civilized" and "privileged" as you are made to artificially feel about where you live and who you are, I am afraid that as far as taking high moral grounds is concerned, your part of the world would not match some primitive village in some obscure country in Africa!


Yes, it is Hitler revisited, but with the slogan "we are Democracies and we believe in justice and freedom for all", together with the accompanying plastic, glassy eyed smile!!!!

[Dragonzbane76]

stirring the pot. Even the 2 week old one.

[Hardwork108]

stirring the pot. Even the 2 week old one.

Hey, the longer it takes, the better it tastes.

[ShaolinDan]

So, the thing about Thanksgiving is that, cultural baggage aside, it's a harvest festival. Which is a nice thing to be thankful for.