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Thread: Sharing, Knowing, and the Paradox of Styles

  1. #1
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    Sharing, Knowing, and the Paradox of Styles

    being that "kung fu", as an art, is based on styles, and the "styles" are defined by region and lineage, why is there so much division in kung fu and rejection of the roots?
    I bring this up because of the North vs South kung fu debates, the Wu Dang vs Shaolin , internal v external, and old vs modern debates that have been going on around. for me, its been Wing Chun, North/South Shaolin, Baji Quan, Choy Lay Fut, Hung Gar and even non CMA that have roots in China.

    When I started training, everything looked so different and hard to discern, then as I progressed within my ccurriculum, I was able to see relativity throughout every aspect of oouur particular "style". Soon, I started to see similarity in most martial arts. Once I got out of my school and got to train with other arts and spar with students, I saw so much in common, I lost sense of division in empty hand combat, while still remaining rooted in the foundation 'style' I was taught.

    Why is this so hard for people to do? Stop bashing, orr trying to down talk peoples schools or legacy to 1 up your style, or your self. I thought traditionally that was dishonorable, so is this a new trend? or a western thing? People are doing this now, without a challenge. I'm not the oldest tree in the forest, however, I remember correctly, when you say "hey your style is trash, and your lineage is from hollywood" that statement has to come with "I'll prove it, let me fight your best representative."

    there should be no petty arguments about style, and if you are really into the arts, there should be an embrace of all who you encounter, and also a willingness to share and learn. Am I missing something? Why is such an argument against kung fu?
    and within the kung fu world, why do some schools not want to link their lineage to its root?
    lets talk about it,

    Amituofo
    Last edited by Djuan; 01-16-2020 at 01:06 PM.
    "色即是空 , 空即是色 " ~ Buddha via Avalokitesvara
    Shaolin Meditator

  2. #2
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    Djuan,

    It’s not only a Western thing. When I lived in Taiwan, there were plenty of kung fu people who bashed other styles, lineages, schools, and teachers. And the bashers I saw ranged in age from late teens to 70+. The bashers all had elitist attitudes. No difference from here.

    There are always those who are respectful of others, and those who are not. The ones who like to bash others are no different from zealots of any other type (religious, political, etc.). It’s a human tendency in some (many) to want to be a part of something special, and to feel superior to others. Like cult members.
    Last edited by Jimbo; 01-15-2020 at 07:28 PM.

  3. #3
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    basics

    On the most fundamental level, martial artists love to fight. So why not fight each other?

    Fight me!

    Gene Ching
    Publisher www.KungFuMagazine.com
    Author of Shaolin Trips
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeneChing View Post
    On the most fundamental level, martial artists love to fight. So why not fight each other?

    Fight me!

    Weird...but mostly true.
    Fighting is on some levels an enjoyable thing. Especially for males.
    I think it's a genetic prerogative of some sort.
    Kung Fu is good for you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeneChing View Post
    On the most fundamental level, martial artists love to fight. So why not fight each other?

    Fight me!

    On the money!

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeneChing View Post
    On the most fundamental level, martial artists love to fight. So why not fight each other?

    Fight me!

    Do they want to fight or to snipe behind their backs? I’ve known of and also met a number of TCMA people who like to take potshots at other practitioners/styles/schools/lineages, etc., but mostly passive-aggressively, and rarely ever directly to the faces of the ones they’re bashing.
    Last edited by Jimbo; 01-16-2020 at 11:56 PM.

  7. #7
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    truth

    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    Do they want to fight or to snipe behind their backs? Iíve known of and also met a number of TCMA people who like to take potshots at other practitioners/styles/schools/lineages, etc., but mostly passive-aggressively, and rarely ever directly to the faces of the ones theyíre bashing.
    Well, yes, there is this too, although it's not limited to TCMA by any means. It's pervasive in all styles and throughout sports, which is one reason that MMA has increased the level of smack talk. However, I'll point out that I did not qualify how martial artists might fight. Obviously they can spar, even in full contact in a cage now. Flaming on the interwebz is a form of fighting too. It's just not a very good form.

    Gene Ching
    Publisher www.KungFuMagazine.com
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeneChing View Post
    Well, yes, there is this too, although it's not limited to TCMA by any means. It's pervasive in all styles and throughout sports, which is one reason that MMA has increased the level of smack talk. However, I'll point out that I did not qualify how martial artists might fight. Obviously they can spar, even in full contact in a cage now. Flaming on the interwebz is a form of fighting too. It's just not a very good form.

    ok is it safe to say mike jai white is pure trollin then? lol (he still doesnt get a pass)
    "色即是空 , 空即是色 " ~ Buddha via Avalokitesvara
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    Djuan,

    Itís not only a Western thing. When I lived in Taiwan, there were plenty of kung fu people who bashed other styles, lineages, schools, and teachers. And the bashers I saw ranged in age from late teens to 70+. The bashers all had elitist attitudes. No difference from here.

    There are always those who are respectful of others, and those who are not. The ones who like to bash others are no different from zealots of any other type (religious, political, etc.). Itís a human tendency in some (many) to want to be a part of something special, and to feel superior to others. Like cult members.
    right, I've seen it in all arts, yet due to the nature and importance of TCMA, among the "styles" of China there is strong divisions, not only regional, some just in relation, people wont want any link to certain styles when they are obviously branches of the same tree.

    For example, a fair divide in the USA in mainstream sports would be hockey and basketball, both use a net to score, yet have no connection in origin or principle. Whats going on in TCMA is different. its More like if in the States, the WNBA tried to say they aren't a branch/child of the NBA.

    You have styles like Baji Quan for example, where some zealous practitioners are acting like it originated out of thin air at WuDang. or even within Tai Chi, styles/schools will deny their root and play the one up game (which is incredible!). Now, I wont even start with how viscous certain styles are against linking with Shaolin, and how ignorant the academic community chooses to be about Shaolin and Damo.

    Its due in part to the academic world's disposition with certain topics and culture traits, they 'ignore' facts and leave massive gaps in important stories, rendering the unlearned confused, and more ignorant by the generation. So then we are left with the arrogant, clickish, ego, both TCMA and MMA fighters making their stand lol

    leave it to MMA, they act like punching kicking and grappling didnt exist before the UFC. sheesh. We can pick all the grappling done in the UFC apart, be it from any form of Jujitsu, and trace it Chinese/Mongolia, and do the same with Chinese/Mongolian chin-na and wrestling, and link that to wrestling/grappling styles in Africa.
    We could pick the ENTIRE Muay Boran style apart and attribute it to ONLY Luohan and Hong boxing from North Shaolin. MAN DO YOU KNOW HOW ****ED PEOPLE GET AT THAT. lol pardon the caps, Thai boxers are ready to fight me to THIS DAY lol. its a fact tho.
    Yet we all (all Lands) share Buddha. How is its, there is accepted Buddhist history in Thailand, and thus within the Muay Boran story, yet you dont include Shaolin? Its the same for Karate, TKD, NINJITSU might be the funniest case of denial. These "styles" are branded for life with roots in China, yet if you say that to some of their practitioners, they would literally want to physically hurt you, even if you can prove it.

    so what happens next, is a watered down 'combat sport' centered martial art community, with no moral compass, or understanding of root to branch in nature, which is like only knowing your brothers and sisters, and denying the parents lol. totally backwards.
    I think thats some of what Bruce Lee used to also argue in his campaign against style limits, and lack of embrace of other schools and evolutionary expressions of fighting. Many people misunderstood his position as against TCMA, I think he actually represented the essence TCMA genuinely and passionately.
    Like Shi Yan Lei says all the time when people try to bash his traditional Shaolin (what idiot would do that and why? idk) as having to much Thai Boxing/Sanda flavor ....."a punch is a punch a kick is a kick"

    Amituofo
    "色即是空 , 空即是色 " ~ Buddha via Avalokitesvara
    Shaolin Meditator

  10. #10
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    Ah...Back to MJW...

    Quote Originally Posted by Djuan View Post
    ok is it safe to say mike jai white is pure trollin then?
    Absolutely. He's purposely saying something controversial in order to get a rise out of other netizens. The question remains the same as with any given troll - Does he really believe what he says or is he just fishing for attention like trolling with a baited line behind the boat? Either way, he's picking a fight to get attention. Whether some Shaoliner takes him to task is another matter entirely, but it's still a form of fighting, albeit a lame form. But such is the way of the world nowadays, right?



    FYI here's that MJW post (for posterity - I'm sure our regulars know about this now but years from now, if someone ttts this, it's good to have a reference.)
    Gene Ching
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    I actually feel that MJW believes what he said in that video. He's simply ignorant about a lot of things, but thinks he knows everything about martial arts, Bruce Lee, etc. Neither MJW nor his comments came across as "clever" enough to be trolling.

    And yes, non-TCMA MAists engage in style and individual bashing, too. But having spent a lot of time in JMA, KMA, and 'American modern' MA (Kenpo, American kickboxing, etc.) before ever studying any TCMA, I can say that, in my experience, I've seen a greater prevalence of the passive-aggressive type of bashing among TCMAists than MAists from other categories. And I don't get why it has to be that way. I have a few theories as to why. Perhaps more lineage snobbery.

    My CLF sifu is one of the MAists I've known who never seemed to engage in such behavior.
    Last edited by Jimbo; 01-17-2020 at 12:42 PM.

  12. #12
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    A good fellow will not go into bashing for protecting his ego. That said it all.




    Regards,

    KC
    Hong Kong

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