Drugs

[tug]

Just recently had an interesting conversation with a friend who says he believes that TCM is mostly placebos, he brought up powdered deer d0ng as a point in fact. Yes, he got that sh!te from The Glimmer Man (lame). Now I don't necessarily disagree with him on the above, if for nothing but the strangeness of such a thing, but the more I read and think about it, it seems to me that Eastern/Western medicines are just two different approaches. I do not believe in most of how we in the West apply our medicines to afflictions, because the drugs our wonderful FDA approves only deal with the major symptoms of sicknesses, not the source, which I believe TCM does.

Can anyone elaborate on the general format of TCM?

Of course, I am nowhere near understanding everything there is about either form of health care, so that's why I'm asking.

Thoughts?

















(also, there have not been any posts in the last 5 days, so it was convenient that I had a question. )

[couch]

There is a uber-good book called:
http://www.amazon.ca/exec/obidos/ASI...850490-5087223

And the updated version has a great appendix about the Blind Spots of Chinese Medicine and Western Medicine.

In short about these are two distinct ways of looking a person when they are ill:
1. Western Medicine is so great for pin-pointing a problem. In the case of a tumor, it has the ability to get right down to the DNA/Gene and remove the tumor. But the draw-back is that they don't look at the tumor in relation to the whole body constitution.

2. TCM looks at the person as a whole. Not only does it look at the specific problem, but other signs and symptoms to paint a complete picture of a person. Tongue, Pulse, Urine, Stool, Menses, Energy, etc...and the most important: Spirit/Mood! The biggest draw-back that the book talks about is the fact that Chinese Medicine can never be as specific as Western Medicine. As in the case of the tumor, TCM cannot go in and just remove the tumor. It cannot "zoom-in" and must look at the whole body. So that the tumor must mean that the person has Blood Stasis and Phlegm. You get the idea.

I don't think that TCM is Complementary any more than Western Medicine is. They simply complement each other.

About the placebo effect:
There are a few books floating around and are listed with the Acupuncture supply company that I use about nerve-clusters, etc within the acupoint area. I think slowly we will see the development of why TCM works in a "western' viewpoint.

But! I am in agreement with the author of that book that there does exist somewhat of a placebo effect. Depending who your intake is with when you go for a TCM treatment: the whole experience is supposed to encompass the whole body. We listen intently to the patient's problem's, not rushing them and letting them express all their concerns. We somewhat have the role of a psychiatrist of whathaveyou.

Also, to improve some needling, we can use the power of suggestion by talking about what the point is going to achieve.

BUT! I truly believe that without any persuasion that TCM works. Day in and day out in the clinic that I work in at school, we have lots of people who don't know if they believe at all and walk away with relief.

Hope this starts a good conversation and helps with your question.

Kenton Sefcik
Acupuncture/TCM student

[tug]

Cool, thanks for the reply and info.

Still a noob to TCM, but I would tend to side with it than TWM.

On the topic of acupuncture and MA on the whole, since there are so many masters and grandmasters and lineages and families, is there a set curriculum? The reason I ask is because, even though TWM changes somewhat over time, I believe there is a standard that is applied when going to med school, and it is pretty much the same for all doctors (aside from personal judgement of course).

Do you see what I'm getting at? I'm having a hard time understanding myself.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

The placebo effect is an interesting phenomenon.. essentially, it is the power of the mind to intervene and effect a healing.. this, the power of the mind, is the great untapped source that begs intense investigation.. Ultimately, i sense that the mind/consciousness has the ability to fully control all bodily functions and most external conditions as well.. it is the interface between the whole of Universal existence and the individual expression of physical existence.. Medicine, whether East or West, is a limited perspective of the "Wholistic" potential.. although, Eastern medicine is much more attuned to the potential of the mind..

Be well..

[couch]

Cool, thanks for the reply and info.

Still a noob to TCM, but I would tend to side with it than TWM.

On the topic of acupuncture and MA on the whole, since there are so many masters and grandmasters and lineages and families, is there a set curriculum? The reason I ask is because, even though TWM changes somewhat over time, I believe there is a standard that is applied when going to med school, and it is pretty much the same for all doctors (aside from personal judgement of course).

Do you see what I'm getting at? I'm having a hard time understanding myself.

To answer your question, yes, there is a set curriculum.

In many of the Universities in China, all programs start off with fundamentals:
1. Fundamentals of TCM (Intro to TCM theories like Five/Six-Organ theory, Five elements, Old Sayings, etc)
2. Diagnosis via Touching, Listening, Tongue, Pulse, Asking, etc
3. Acupoint location of all 400 or so acupoints and some of the more commonly used and their function
4. Single Herbs and their functions

Most Chinese TCM Universities then allow specialization in Acupuncture, Internal Medicine or Herbology.

As far as the College I go to in Calgary, Alberta: we spend our time on a little of each. In Canada, there are only three provinces that govern practicing Acupuncturists! And in only one province is there but another designation denoting extra time spent studying Herbology.

However, in the US, there are either National regulations or State regulations (such as in California where they have their own extra-hard exam).

So with these governing bodies and regulations...there comes a standard to "try" to weed out the bad practicioners.

In my school the first year consisits of:
Fundamental Theories of TCM
Anatomy
Physiology
Biochemistry
Microbiology
Diagnostics of TCM
Pathology
Pharmacology
Acupuncture & Moxibustion I
Herbology I
Clinical Observation I

Second Year:
Tui Na
Acupuncture & Moxibustion II + III
Herbology II
Internal TCM I
Clinical Observation II
Acupuncture & Moxibustion IV
Herbology III
Internal TCM II
External TCM
Clinical Observation III

Third Year:
Western Medical Terminology
Western Medical Diagnostics
Acupuncture & Moxibustion V
TCM Gynecology & Pediatrics
Special Clinical Case Studies
First Aid and CPR
Integration of TCM and Western Medicine
Clinical Observation IV
Final Practicum - 700 Hours

Hope this gives you a good idea,
Best,
Kenton Sefcik

[tug]

Wow, that is very intensive. Not at all what I had expected. I was interested to see the integration of Eastern and Western medicines.

Thanks for the info.

[dwid]

1. Western Medicine is so great for pin-pointing a problem. In the case of a tumor, it has the ability to get right down to the DNA/Gene and remove the tumor. But the draw-back is that they don't look at the tumor in relation to the whole body constitution.

I would argue that this is not a totally accurate representation of Western Medicine as a whole, but is rather a side effect of the system of medical care provision in some parts of the West, especially the U.S.

Lots of research in Western Medicine focuses on consideration of the whole person, pointing to the importance of controllable risk factors for disease, such as stress management, sleep, diet, and exercise, and the huge impact preventative medicine can have.

However, number crunchers working for lots of the private health insurance companies (which do most of the reimbursing in this country) have determined that it is not cost effective to focus on preventative medicine, as most individuals will change insurance providers several times throughout their lives and will therefore likely be covered by someone else by the time the preventable illnesses reveal themselves.

What insurance companies cover is a primary force that drives how healthcare is provided in the U.S., so preventative, holistic approaches not being paid for pretty much eliminates them from mainstream use.

Anyway, the point being, having worked in medical environments, I can tell you that Western Medicine is fully comforable with putting disease in its proper context of what's going on with the whole person, the system simply lacks the mechanisms needed to do anything with this information.

[couch]

I would argue that this is not a totally accurate representation of Western Medicine as a whole, but is rather a side effect of the system of medical care provision in some parts of the West, especially the U.S.

Lots of research in Western Medicine focuses on consideration of the whole person, pointing to the importance of controllable risk factors for disease, such as stress management, sleep, diet, and exercise, and the huge impact preventative medicine can have.

However, number crunchers working for lots of the private health insurance companies (which do most of the reimbursing in this country) have determined that it is not cost effective to focus on preventative medicine, as most individuals will change insurance providers several times throughout their lives and will therefore likely be covered by someone else by the time the preventable illnesses reveal themselves.

What insurance companies cover is a primary force that drives how healthcare is provided in the U.S., so preventative, holistic approaches not being paid for pretty much eliminates them from mainstream use.

Anyway, the point being, having worked in medical environments, I can tell you that Western Medicine is fully comforable with putting disease in its proper context of what's going on with the whole person, the system simply lacks the mechanisms needed to do anything with this information.

The cool thing about the book that I recommended is that it also talks about some doctors trying to "shift" back to the way things were and how they are trying to get away from being "symptomatologists."

I agree the down side of Western Medicine is a product of the times. It's really awesome to note, however, that Western Medicine journals are again promoting getting back to treating the patient as a whole - the way things used to be in the "golden olden days."

They both have their place (Western and Eastern thought) and I hope that many people seek out good TCM doctors and Western doctors like they do a good car mechanic. It takes some time, but we're out there.

Best,
Kenton Sefcik

[dwid]

The cool thing about the book that I recommended is that it also talks about some doctors trying to "shift" back to the way things were and how they are trying to get away from being "symptomatologists."

I agree the down side of Western Medicine is a product of the times. It's really awesome to note, however, that Western Medicine journals are again promoting getting back to treating the patient as a whole - the way things used to be in the "golden olden days."

They both have their place (Western and Eastern thought) and I hope that many people seek out good TCM doctors and Western doctors like they do a good car mechanic. It takes some time, but we're out there.

Best,
Kenton Sefcik

Sounds like a good book. I also agree that it is great that some practitioners are trying to shift back to the way things were. A driving force in this, I would argue, is nurses. Nurses and Nurse Practitioners have been consistently trained with a more holistic perspective. Look all the way back to Florence Nightingale and her ideas about the importance of creating a healing environment. Nurses do most of the day to day assessment and care in the hospital, and Nurse Practitioners are an ever-increasing presence in primary care - this can only mean good things for patient care.

Anyway, I also agree that integrative medicine has great potential, and it is in people's best interests to seek out practices and practitioners that complement the healthcare provided within the mainstream system. People just need to be smart about it. There is an increasing body of research out there, which offers people the opportunity to engage in evidence-based integrative medicine instead of just believing every snake oil salesman pushing a product.

[herb ox]

I'm backing dwid....


nurses rule!

ox