A strict kwoon:-Good or bad?

[joedoe]

I am not talking about a work meeting. What about a meeting with a client? What about a meeting with a friend? A meeting with your parish priest?

The bottom line is respect for the other person(s).

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You're fu(king up my chi

[Pika]

If I had a reason for being late, I would expect any reasonable person to accept that.

[straight blast]

It's a respect thing Pika. If you have a reason fair enough, but I like to show the instructor that I respect him enough to be ready to begin training the moment he arrives.
But mind you, I hate it when people are late for no reason, so I'm probably just imposing my own views on my training.

"Forfeit the game
Before somebody else takes you out of the frame
And puts your name to shame
Cover up your face
You can't run the race
The pace is too fast,
You just won't last!"

[Frank Exchange]

Our class trains the same informal way they do in Hong Kong.

If you are late, you are late. If you have to leave early, you leave early. If you want to stop and have a drink, or a sandwich, you stop.

There is no bowing. You show respect to people the same way you show respect to anyone outside a kungfu class, by being a nice person.

There are no pressups, or callesthenics at the beginning. If you want to do those, you do it at home. Why pay someone else for the privilege?

If you want to tell a joke, or swear if you get whacked, then tell the joke, or swear.

There are no punishments. Why should I pay someone to punish me? I could get that elsewhere. ;)

It probably sounds a bit anarchic compared to some of the military style karate classes I have seen, but it works extremely well, because only people who really want to learn stay for any length of time.

They way we see it, the urge to learn comes from within. If you dont have this, then you may not have the self discipline to learn kungfu anyway.


The chalice from the palace has the pellet with the poison,
The vessel with the pestle has the brew that is true!

[Wongsifu]

man i used to travel halfway aross the island for my lessons (which admittedly isnt that far) it took me over an hour , and i would leave work and go straight there. The instructor should be happy that i used to arrive at all let alone if i was 20 minutes late

This is because THC is not an alkaloid. It does not contain a nitrogen atom, therefore it is a terpenophenolic compound

[xiong]

Over the years I have been in everything from Parks & Recreation, to collegiate club, to professional school for training and my personal preference is for some formality but not alot of srictness. I agree that it is terrible to be late, but I am not 5 years old and do not need to learn to be on time through punishment. If I am late it is because they kept me at work or traffic was bad or both. If I'm already ****ed off about that, doing 50 pushups is not going to improve my attitude for this class or subsequent classes. I work hard to earn the money to pay for training, missing class time is punishment enough. And I think the instructor has to take the point of view that they can't rehash the whole lesson for the late person. Like making up assignments in school, it's up to the student.

The problem with fulfilling your potential is that then you don't have any potential left.

[Robinf]

I've found that the more "strict" the kwoon, the more likely people show up. Instead of "strict" I call it "structured". I think it's healthy to have structure.

Doing pushups if you're late is a matter of respect. Everyone has reasons for being late, but to get into the habit of excusing it is detrimental. It's no big deal to be late, but out of repsect for folks and the flow of the class once it starts, come in quietly and do a few pushups (50, I feel is extreme, but who am I to judge?). It's kind of saying that you can't just sneak in--we notice you weren't here and we notice you are here; you are not invisible. That's the way I see it. We've never had any complaints about it from anyone. In fact, some have said that it helps them refocus their mind from whatever it was that made them late (usually traffic) to just learning kung fu.

Robin

Surrender yourself to nature and be all that you are.

[scotty1]

I don't know, I think I can get on both ways.
I think horseplay that stops the rest of the class doing their thing should not be tolerated, but at the same time I don't want to be shouted at in front of my fellows for being late.
Some teachers suit one way or the other.

"Some people, irrespective of skill, are just wankers." -Satanachia

[shaolinboxer]

In my kwoon if we are late for class it's 50 extra push ups.

- I never liked this rule. We all have hard lives with a lot of responsibilities. Being late is not a reflection of goofy off and does not deserve punishment. It means you were working hard and still made the time to train.

there is no cursing at all.

- I suppose that's fine.

No bad talking about another student or school.

- Also fine, but you'd hope this rule wouldn't have to be a rule. It dpends on what bad talking is....criticism should be invited as long as it is constructive and honest.

bowing in and out of class.(of course)

- I like this rule. Bowing in and out is a way of signaling to yourself "training on/ training off".

When the bell rings to announce the start of class you immediatly stop what you are doing and line up in formation at attention.

- Normal enough.

If you are not going to make it to class you have to call with a reason.

-This is a BAD rule. Rules like this start to cross the border between school and cult. Your life is yours. Your training is yours. You should not have to answer to anyone about your schedule (except maybe your wife/husband ;) ).

[Shaolindynasty]

I don't see a problem with rules and structure. I don't run my classes like a military karate school though. That's probally cause I'm so young though, I'm 20 so I think some 30 or 40 year old would resent it if I started yelling at him for being late. On the other hand my class does have structure, everyone is expected to arrive on time. I don't like the idea of punishing people with exercise(talking about the kids class since I don't punish adults) That would make them feel like exercise is a punishment right? ;) So I make them sit out if they don't do as I tell them. Kids need to be punished somtimes, Adults should have the sense to know that even though they pay for the lesson it is still a privlige to learn Kungfu and to respect everyone. I would never expect people to call me if they can't show but somtimes they do, maybe because I show them respect so they show it back.


www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net

[Robinf]

There really shouldn't be yelling at any adults, especially if you're teaching and you're younger than the student learning from you. I was raised to respect elders, no matter what. I may not like the elder, but I will respect him/her. This doesn't mean I have to let them cut in line, it just means I'm polite and explain I was there and I'm not invisible.

Pushups when entering late, also get the heart going a little while causing the least amount of distraction (jumping jacks are distracting).

Kids, on the other hand, are a bit easier to handle. We don't yell often, so it's effective when we have to yell (last resort). I've gotten creative in disciplining classes and kids. If I see a few students or the entire class beginning to goof around, I join in leading a blitz of calestenics and go right back to what we were doing. The kids usually settle in to the exercise better that way. For single kids causing comotion, I have them come to the front of the class and lead (depending on the kid, some are too inexperienced). They settle down, usually. The kids who are too inexperienced end up doing pushups or doing their form or combination backward (if that's what we're working on). In sparring, off comes the gear and they sit out.

Robin

Surrender yourself to nature and be all that you are.

[Mutant]

At times in my life I have trained in strictly disciplined MA schools and more informal MA schools. It depends on what kind of environment you need to motivate you to train as hard and effectively as possible.
And it depends on where you are in life, if youre a kid who needs the discipline aspect of it then I would recommend that environment. Or if youre an adult that needs strict formality and rules to motivate you then go for it, do whatever it takes to push you harder and learn more.
Personally I prefer the informal approach. I often have to work late and am just happy to make it to class and get a good work out in. And I push myself very hard and train until I am exhausted. I really don't need anyone in my face enforcing discipline, at this point that would be a distraction from my training. There are enough rules in my life as it is, in my personal training time, I don't want anyone police-ing me.
Besides, some of the strictest most formal schools I know of suck and turn out terrible fighters...but they make great day care centers, alternatives to the Boy Scouts, or Sado-Masochist training camps for kissing some 'grand masters' a$$!!! ;)

-MutantWarrior

"Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checked by failures...than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
-Theodore Roosevelt

[logic]

I went to a pretty strict karate school for about 8 1/2 years and my kwoon is really not much stricter.
I don't know how my sifu handles his kids class,it's a different earlier class.
I always show up about 15 minutes early and the other students about 10 minutes early, only one time I saw another student have to do push ups.(My sifu gives a lot of warnings at first)only if it's happening to often does he react.
If someone screws up or fall flat on their can,oh yeah we laugh and we'll let em hear about it and we might bring it up in the future Jokingly of corse.Thats not bad talking someone.
My sifu does not yell or get in your face he is quite calm.It's just that these rules are expected of the student who attends are kwoon.
He told the one student that was late at the end of class to do his push ups,when people were getting ready to leave so not many of the other students heard.

If my class was a little more easy going I would still train the same as now.But the class is O.K. by me, if I didn't like it of if he did get in my face I would just leave.

Honest Neutral Clarity

[Shaolindynasty]

"Besides, some of the strictest most formal schools I know of suck and turn out terrible fighters...but they make great day care centers, alternatives to the Boy Scouts, or Sado-Masochist training camps for kissing some 'grand masters' a$$!!! "

This is sooo true! :)


www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net

[joedoe]

Really, our class is not that strict. You only get pushups if you are more than say 5 minutes late, and then it's not that many pushups. If you have a good reason for being late, then fine. I have a real problem with people who purposefully arrive late so they miss the hard parts of class (usually the warm up).

You have to impose some discipline when you have 40-50 people of varying ages (mostly between 15 - 25) in a fairly enclosed space. Otherwise silly things happen and people get hurt (this obviously doesn't apply to the arriving late thing - that's about respect).

When I teach a class, I impose discipline to ensure the safety of the students and to ensure that the students learn to respect each other and the instructors. I do not believe in military style classes.

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You're fu(king up my chi