practical drills

[mun hung]

When you do drills in class, is there any hard contact? I mean real punches and kicks.

Also, I've watched some drills on various WC videos and noticed that most of the time punches don't even reach. Is this realistic training?

[rubthebuddha]

nowhere near realistic. in real-time, you do what you practice. if you you practice hitting empty air, guess what you're going to hit in a fight? if you practice hitting people, guess what you're going to do in a fight.

the worst thing i've ever seen? people that practice hard, but aim their strikes just to the side of their attackers head.

i think it's best to practice with contact people are comfy with and make sure you make that contact and lock your elbow out/follow.

[Abstract]

hey man you already know how I feel about this, we've discussed this many times!

hey is sifu gonna have those workshops? gimme a call/email man!

[red5angel]

It sounds to me like these punches may be more for control then actual realistic fighting. I believe it is still a good idea to mix that sort of drill into training but at the same time you have to feel your hits, either on a sparring partner or a bag of some sort.

rubthebuddha, do you lock your elbow when you punch? The reason I ask is because in my training, a locked elbow is something that I look for in wing chun, if it is locked, the easier it is to hyperextend it and snap the joint.

red5angel

[yuanfen]

Depends on what the purpose of the drill is. Some are for timing.
Thus in the lop sao practice you are already supposed to be deflected before the punch reaches the person.
In other drills whre you test whether you are getting through,
control is the key. If you can reach a person with control and only a little power you can turn the power on when you really need it
provide you have practised again and again. You dont have to dop the bomb every time in every test to know what is there..

[rubthebuddha]

yes, we do lock the elbow out, but only at one very important time: when we are actually making proper striking contact. if i punch at you with my elbow down and trigger a bong sau, yet continue locking my arm out, you're darn right i'm going to get clocked. i only lock the elbow out when my fist or palm is on the surface of your face, ribs, throat, neck, noggin, etc. and i'm ready to extend my hand through you. if i get through to my target, i'm safe in locking out my elbow. i lock that elbow out any other time and i risk becoming lunch for the more keen chi sau player.

honestly, i know very little about wc and vt technique, so i'm not sure how this falls in other families. i can only speak for the wt i was taught. to me, it makes sense that at least the principles would carry over.

[mun hung]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by yuanfen
[B]Depends on what the purpose of the drill is. Some are for timing. Thus in the lop sao practice you are already supposed to be deflected before the punch reaches the person.

Hello, Yuanfen.
My questions: are both practitioners still in striking range of each other when doing this particular drill? Is attack and defense still the purpose of this exercise, or is it purely for timing?

I've seen this drill done far enough apart that even if there was no defense the punch still would'nt reach. What purpose would that serve?

[rubthebuddha]

the only purpose i can see for practicing a technique when not in range is when that technique is first introduced, especially if it's being taught to still-new students, is to make sure they get comfy with the motions before being in range to get hit/hit back. i've seen a few times when newer students learn a technique, get so wrapped up in it, and go a bit too hard with their other hand, lop sau is one of them. so getting people familiar with the technique so when they practice with proper range and power, they're already familiar with the technique and can practice without much worry of slipups.

but that's about all i can think of, and none of my instructors nor i use this method much, if at all. instead, we have people strike to the sternum until their comfy, as we don't want them to get in the habit of hitting air.

[red5angel]

ok, I was just asking, hope you didn't think I was criticsing you, I was just curious because I have always been taught that locking the elbow is a sure sign of trouble, although I believe that I have heard from another source the tecnique for whch you mention.

Red5angel

[rubthebuddha]

nah. i knew you were just asking. and we agree on the locking of the elbow thing. my di-sije loves to take advantage of this. she's about 5'4" and 115 pounds of pure forward intention, and if my elbow so much as leaves my centerline for an instant, unless she has lost her own line (which never happens ), i get socked.

[yuanfen]

mun hung asks:Hello, Yuanfen.
My questions: are both practitioners still in striking range of each other when doing this particular drill? Is attack and defense still the purpose of this exercise, or is it purely for timing?

I've seen this drill done far enough apart that even if there was no defense the punch still would'nt reach. What purpose would that serve?
-------------------------- Hi mun hung;;;
many things vary in wc from school to school- does not make them all correct IMO. In any case a true lop sao drill is part of a good chi sao curriculum and correct positioning and timing are
of primary importance. Attack and defense are built into lop sao.
Yes, if my partner does not bong and lop at the right time my punch would reach him. But you dont put full power into it if you are working on and learning timing and positioning.
The "far enough apart" scenario does not apply to my basic lop sao drill so someone else can take a shot at that. However,
I do practice attcks from a distance where you close and apply the learned lop sao skills. Cheers.

[yuanfen]

On locking the elbow when you are in contact with someone-
my advice? FWIW: Dont. A competent person can do many things with a locked elbow.

[rubthebuddha]

yuan fen: not to argue with you, but i've been taught to do this for a variety of reasons. one thing i need to really emphasize is that it's ONLY done when a strike is assured. if i have both of my opponent's arms trapped, i'm safe to strike them and lock that elbow out for a brief moment as i'm striking through them.

[yuanfen]

rubthe buddha- no argument at all. It is good to compare and contrast what folks do. I dont need to lock my elbow in order to deliver full penetrating power- but there are other ways in other schools-I understand. Good wishes. Dont hurt the buddha when rubbing...

[Chuk Hung]

Mun Hung,

"When you do drills in class, is there any hard contact? I mean real punches and kicks.
Also, I've watched some drills on various WC videos and noticed that most of the time punches don't even reach. Is this realistic training?"


Drills should vary in degree of contact, depending on the stage of a student's development. The purpose of drills are to teach the concepts of the system and to train physical attributes. Some of which are sensitivity, relaxation when under pressure, distance awareness, body alignment, understanding and utilizing the centerline theory, hand cooperation, compression, and development of energy, structure and the horse.

A student at the early stages, need to develop these attributes, which takes a great deal of time and patience. Contact is, of course, necessary. Drills should be done with soft contact, so that the student can see and feel what is being done and accomplished. Hard contact at this stage will retard a student's sensitivity and relaxation.

Only when the concepts of WC are understood and applied, and the physical attributes somewhat developed, should the student be allowed to progress to "harder" contact drills. This phase will help to develop the student's physical conditioning, while applying the concepts and attributes that are still developing.

So what you are seeing in the videos, are most likely people trying to explain and/or train the concepts and physical movements of the system. It is rather difficult to see them when you are watching people spar, due to the speed of the movements.

With regards to locking out the elbow when striking, this is known to me as "long arm energy", or "cheung kiu sau". Locking out the elbows allows you to follow expend all your energy into your target/opponent. There are certain situations when this is favorable, usually when there is no obstruction of the path of the strike to its target. This is particularly effective when you have closed the distance to your target, which allows you to fully punch through your target.

I myself, prefer to hit with a bent elbow. Doing this forces me to utilize my forward moving horse, in other words, I am hitting with my body. When hitting with my body, I am forced to root and power off the ground, which adds mass to my punch. This allows me to generate more power. A good example is Mike Tyson, who is not very big in stature, but has tremendous leg strength. When he dips his body, his legs compress and allows him to power off the canvas in such a way, an uppercut can lift a man off his feet.

Also, a locked elbow, at the wrong time, distance and/or position, will make you vulnerable to an arm break or joint lock.