Hehe....
At least I still have a functioning part to be de-sexed......you wheelchair limp D!CK.
Senior Member
Hehe....
At least I still have a functioning part to be de-sexed......you wheelchair limp D!CK.
Senior Member
..
ego, your analogies do not fit up at all. it doesn't matter what happens or did happen in western culture, and the military had nothing to do with gongfu unless we know it did. things like that can not be taken for granted.
temples have quite a bit of worth in them. if you weren't so wrapped up in your soldier of fortune magazines you would see that many temples are made out of very extravagant and expensive materials that would have been highly sought-after. this is not even touching on the valuables inside the temples. during different periods of time, the shaolin temple was quite wealthy, being in good favor with the government and owning quite a bit of land. china has always been known to have bandits, so much, in fact, that caravans were usually escorted for fear of them.
the people that the shaolin temple's abbot invited were famous throughout china. as stated before, chinese military was not and is not all that great, and definitely not renowned for it's fighting skill. the question changes to why they would not invite famous fighters rather than poor military troops.
why then, besides being able to defend themselves, would the shaolin temple have required it's monks to practice gongfu? work, meditation, self-defense. all of these things were pertinent at the time, and vital to the temple as a whole. many temples practiced martial arts for the same reasons, not just the famous songshan, wudangshan, and emeishan temples, but many temples. are there any other reasons, then, for monks knowing gongfu? yes, because it was a source of income for the temple. for hundreds of years monks performed for the common people, as well as taught martial arts there. the first time that sun lutang saw martial arts was when he saw a crowd of people watching an old man practice shaolinquan. at the temple he had learned tantui and hidden weapons.
so, why does the shaolin temple not hold the fame that it once did? maybe because it was burned several times over during the last two hundred years, and most of it's monks were scattered. duh. everyone knows that, ego. several older people came back to the temple when the chinese government restored it some twenty to thirty years ago to encourage tourism. the temple accepted disciples, and the old monks taught them many forms, although it is without doubt that quite a bit was lost. still, though, the shaolin temple now performs for money, takes in students and disciples, and continues with the tradition the best way they can.
hmm... to wrap up, ego, i'm going to answer a couple of your comments/questions quickly.
the church in medieval europe used the military to accomplish it's goals, but never took a part in any of the military.
why don't many temples practice gongfu anymore, you ask? because the chinese government is officially atheist, and the cultural revolution killed away most temples and gongfu from them, not to mention the fact that in northern china since the late 1800's to the 1960's gongfu was deemed too traditional, and without use. it suffered greatly in the north and south, and many temples abandoned it because it, seeing no use for it anymore. go around the songshan area, the wudangshan area, the emeishan area, and the fujian and guangdong provinces, and you will see the huge preservation of very old temple styles.
as i said before, changquan is a very old style, that certainly would have no definite beginning nor end, but it has definitely been around for longer than you think it has.
why aren't temples in thailand known for their thai kickboxing? maybe because circumstances were different in all sorts of countries. gongfu being practiced at temples began in china. why would this be the same for any other temples in any other countries?
btw, ego, i've noticed that in other countries, daoism isn't practiced with magic or spiritual consultation. is this a serious problem? are we to doubt that chinese daoists don't practice these things just because daoists in other countries and cultures don't practice them? i think i've made my point.
Large Member
good reply PlasticSquirrel
What about Cardinal Richelieu's personal guard? or the crusaders and the knights templar for that matter? How about the people enforcing the will of the inquisition.
Why would the church train its priests to fight when they could have proffessional fighters who would do their bidding?
And the parallel is a stupid one, as a martial art (to a buddhist monk) is first and foremost a physical discipline. When he focuses his existance on perfecting his skills in that art, and perfecting every part of his body to the highest standard it helps to concentrate his mind and prevents him from becoming distracted by material concerns.
I've seen photos of buddhist monks hanging boulders off their *****es (I'm serious). Why would a monk, sworn to a life of celibacy and non-indulgence need to train this part of his body (even if he practices martial arts)? Simply to extend this level of perfection to every body part.
How could a sophisticated martial art have been invented by monks and for what reason? Apart from the need to defend themselves and the temple as stated by PlasticSquirrel...
For the same reason that it continues to thrive at many temples despite the fact that it no longer has any practical use today. When one practices a physical art as a part of one's religious meditation, such a utilitarian impetus becomes irrelevant.
Starting the far queue
Not entirely true - I would not say that the Shaolin arts no longer have a practical use todayOriginally posted by anton
*SNIP*
... For the same reason that it continues to thrive at many temples despite the fact that it no longer has any practical use today. When one practices a physical art as a part of one's religious meditation, such a utilitarian impetus becomes irrelevant.
cxxx[]:::::::::::>
Behold, I see my father and mother.
I see all my dead relatives seated.
I see my master seated in Paradise and Paradise is beautiful and green; with him are men and boy servants.
He calls me. Take me to him.
Large Member
I agree, thats why i said "many temples" rather than specifically Shaolin. I'm sure there are some remote temples in both China and neighbouring countries (g Tibet) where martial arts thrive alongside traditional dance and music as disciplines intended to aid concentration and prevent material distractions.
Banned
"ego, your analogies do not fit up at all. it doesn't matter what happens or did happen in western culture, and the military had nothing to do with gongfu unless we know it did. things like that can not be taken for granted."
If you like to eat your words i invite you to read on!
"temples have quite a bit of worth in them. if you weren't so wrapped up in your soldier of fortune magazines you would see that many temples are made out of very extravagant and expensive materials that would have been highly sought-after. this is not even touching on the valuables inside the temples. during different periods of time, the shaolin temple was quite wealthy, being in good favor with the government and owning quite a bit of land."
Your connection between martial arts and its development is wealth. Given that the collective wealth of China is greater than shaolin temple doesn't your claim that the chinese military are comprised of poor fighters raise a point of inconsistency? Protecting a temple is far more easy than protecting an empire!
"china has always been known to have bandits, so much, in fact, that caravans were usually escorted for fear of them."
But china was not run by groups of warlord with maurauding armies. Bandits would go after soft targets such as travelling caravens with substantial wealth. Will however think twice raiding a hardened targets. Mosnks could much easily (within a few months) constucted defensive walls and guard towers with archers. This would give them a 3:1 advantage (rule of thumb) against a would be invader. walls were the best defence at the time - prior to invention of the cannon. Again, drawing anaogies form other cultures proves my point!
"the people that the shaolin temple's abbot invited were famous throughout china. as stated before, chinese military was not and is not all that great, and definitely not renowned for it's fighting skill. the question changes to why they would not invite famous fighters rather than poor military troops."
And as stated before, poor military troops and good fighting monks is illogical! Its like saying a preditor has hoofed feet and herbivor has sharp claws.
If you say that a bunch of bandits pose a greater threat than the mongols or manchus in the north, then what you say would make sense. If this is true, wouldn't that negate having the wall asthe military would rather the mongols in and the bandits out. This being not the case again shows you've gotten things in reverse!
"why then, besides being able to defend themselves, would the shaolin temple have required it's monks to practice gongfu? work, meditation, self-defense. all of these things were pertinent at the time, and vital to the temple as a whole. many temples practiced martial arts for the same reasons, not just the famous songshan, wudangshan, and emeishan temples, but many temples."
I take the point on self defence. However, as pointed out from earlier examples they need not achieve this high a level. They would not have the combat stimulus to develop to this level.
"are there any other reasons, then, for monks knowing gongfu? yes, because it was a source of income for the temple. for hundreds of years monks performed for the common people, as well as taught martial arts there. the first time that sun lutang saw martial arts was when he saw a crowd of people watching an old man practice shaolinquan. at the temple he had learned tantui and hidden weapons."
Its unlikely that an art for performance purpose by chance happened to be an advance combat system. The argument of kung fu development for the purpose of entertaining common folk makes less sense than its development for hard core military campaigns! Who here contest this point?
"so, why does the shaolin temple not hold the fame that it once did? maybe because it was burned several times over during the last two hundred years, and most of it's monks were scattered. duh. everyone knows that, ego."
And it was burned down for hiding exile military types who are encouraging rebel activities. Do you not think that that's how kung fu came into shaolin temple?
"several older people came back to the temple when the chinese government restored it some twenty to thirty years ago to encourage tourism. the temple accepted disciples, and the old monks taught them many forms, although it is without doubt that quite a bit was lost. still, though, the shaolin temple now performs for money, takes in students and disciples, and continues with the tradition the best way they can."
Like cracking bricks with their heads or practicing swords with waffer thin blades. The state of kung fu at shaolin temple is pure garbage. There're documentries made on this!
One more thing, drawing parallels with other civilizations allows one to identify possible outliers. If the implications of these outliers are such that they contridict with logical reasoning, then their accuratenesss should be revisited.
hmm... to wrap up, ego, i'm going to answer a couple of your comments/questions quickly.
the church in medieval europe used the military to accomplish it's goals, but never took a part in any of the military.
why don't many temples practice gongfu anymore, you ask? because the chinese government is officially atheist, and the cultural revolution killed away most temples and gongfu from them, not to mention the fact that in northern china since the late 1800's to the 1960's gongfu was deemed too traditional, and without use. it suffered greatly in the north and south, and many temples abandoned it because it, seeing no use for it anymore. go around the songshan area, the wudangshan area, the emeishan area, and the fujian and guangdong provinces, and you will see the huge preservation of very old temple styles.
as i said before, changquan is a very old style, that certainly would have no definite beginning nor end, but it has definitely been around for longer than you think it has.
why aren't temples in thailand known for their thai kickboxing? maybe because circumstances were different in all sorts of countries. gongfu being practiced at temples began in china. why would this be the same for any other temples in any other countries?
btw, ego, i've noticed that in other countries, daoism isn't practiced with magic or spiritual consultation. is this a serious problem? are we to doubt that chinese daoists don't practice these things just because daoists in other countries and cultures don't practice them? i think i've made my point.
Sabah Ilchayr!
yawn! anyone else getting tired of Ego's stupidity? I certainly am.
Zvika
Junior Member
All you've done so far is spout historical nonsense about the history's of northern and southern China. You've still not explained in any detail what techniques/priciples/moves/stances... make the Northern styles superior the Southern.
If not now then when?
If not you then who?
Junior Member
That question above is directed at the Ego
If not now then when?
If not you then who?
Senior Member
Sorry guys, but EGO the BUTHEAD has trouble reading so I will post this again.
BUTHEAD-
Hahahaha..........you finally proved to yourself how ignorant you are about Chinese History!
Read my post carefully!
Yes, Yin Tong was a little less famous, BUT.......Huang Po is known throughout China, Hong Kong and ESPECIALLY Taiwan.
It IS and WAS the Central Military Academy of the Kuomintang(research who they are yourself) In fact I "THINK", Taiwan still calls the military academy Haung Po.
It must have been a DISCRACE for northern masters NOT to have been POSTED THERE!
What a pity, poor northern master could not prove his kungfu good enough to be chosen by Chang Kai Shek to teach his officer corps! It's ok, its possible they had a post teaching push ups, because hand to hand combat was being taught by Chung Lai Chun(southern kungfu teacher).
I also mentioned this too, but in your complete ignorance you just SELECTIVELY try to cut and paste what EVERYONE post, in order to save whats left of your A$$FACE!
Yes, as long as you talk and i reply, Iam speaking to your A$$. Again I'm suprise you admit your A$$ is your HEAD!
Last edited by TIger Hand; 01-09-2002 at 10:48 AM.
Chop Choy
Not only has he shown his poor grasp of Chinese history but of European as well (probably because he's a Vietnamese guy in Australia and also doesn't get out much-Hey Kelvin, give the porn channels a rest and watch something informative).
The church in Medieval Europe had some of the best fighters to be found. Most famously the knights Templar but also groups such as the Knights Hospitaller as well. Templars fought the Mongol invasion in Germany (going back a bit, without startling sucess), the Knights hospitaller stopped the Mongol invasion of Palestine and the advance of the Ottoman Empire was finally halted by the Knights of St John at the Siege of Malta. These Brotherhoods of knights were essentially the shaolin Martial Monks of their culture.
Really, your last post showed what a complete fool you are.
"The man who stands for nothing is likely to fall for anything"
www.swindonkungfu.co.uk
Senior Member
..
ego, i am not eating my words, and you have proved nothing in the least.
how could the military have so much "combat stimulus" that they would have been able to learn what worked and what didn't? no one has that much combat experience in the front lines and lives long enough to make their own style. the only people who have enough "combat stimulus" to be able to develop their own styles from their experiences are professional fighters and teachers of fighting. militaristic types would only focus on weapons, anyway.
monks and professionals had the "combat stimulus", though. don't you think that if monks would sit for hours in their stances that they were tough enough to fight eachother? shaolin has always had free fighting. how do people get good at fighting at your school? do they get good by being in the military, or good by sparring and getting into real fights? do they have "combat stimulus", or are they wasting their money?
i'm well aware, ego, of the state of the gongfu at the shaolin temple. you need not remind me of it, and since it has no relevence to the state of the shaolin temple of more than two hundred years ago, you make no points by reminding us of it.
i mentioned in my post, ego, that monks used gongfu as a side job, and did not practice it expressly for performance. they were able to get money for performing it not because they were spectacular performers, but because they were renowned for their fighting skill.
no, ego, you are still being called an idiot. you can not borrow examples from other totally different cultures and expect to replace common knowledge. i'm getting tired of replying to your idiotic babbling about the military, "combat stimulus", "force multiplying", and topics that have a better place in soldier of fortune. tell me what famous martial artists and fighters were from the military, and i will tell you of some who could not attribute any of their skill to anything remotely military.
Large Member
Getting tired of Ego's ego! lolOriginally posted by HopGar
yawn! anyone else getting tired of Ego's stupidity? I certainly am.
I hope one day he goes into his nearest Southern-style school, walks up to the Sifu and tells him how inferior his style is.
I'm sure they'll have 'arguments' to convince him of the contrary.
Sabah Ilchayr!
no kidding, I hope that happens as well.
Zvika
Member
I dunno why this post is still continuing...over the last couple months, i've come to this forum like 4 or 5 times and would see this topic on the top. Why do you guys care to answer a person you all call a troll. Common sense is...he's trying to get attention with stupid remarks and his job is essentially done when you people come and post replies which for him is probably like getting an orgasm. Leave it alone and he will stop posting these dumb things.
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