Countering grapplers

[mkriii]

Some of you people don't realize that grapplers train for this kind of stuff. Do you think they don't realize all the possabilities that a fighter could do to counter a shoot or a takedown? This is what they train for guys. Come on, use your head. I'm not saying that a grappler can't be beat but these kind of things are what they train for. Grapplers are fast and strong. Probably faster than most stand up fighters. They have drills to help them get faster. Wrestler/grapplers are for the most part in way more better shape cardio wise than a stand up fighter.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Some of you people don't realize that grapplers train for this kind of stuff. Do you think they don't realize all the possabilities that a fighter could do to counter a shoot or a takedown? This is what they train for guys. Come on, use your head. I'm not saying that a grappler can't be beat but these kind of things are what they train for. Grapplers are fast and strong. Probably faster than most stand up fighters. They have drills to help them get faster. Wrestler/grapplers are for the most part in way more better shape cardio wise than a stand up fighter.

Well, there's a revelation !
*throws away judo BB, dumps university wrestling experience, disregards BJJ training*

[unkokusai]

You know what unk......I don't give a rats ass what you think. If you think I'm full of bull **** then anytime you feel frogy just hop my way and we can see how much bull **** I'm all about. How do ya like them apples? I'll even PM you my address and you can show up on my doorstep and we can go from there. But wait......you'll have some excuse. Something like that I should come to you or some lame retard excuse. Well you know something.....if your going to call someone out and say they don't know what they are talking about then be prepared to prove it. I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is all you have to do is the same. Come here, beat me, and thats all you have to do.

Ok Rudy, be right there. Letting some semi-literate racist backwater moron try his lame-ass Eastnowhere HS fireman's on me is absolutely worth the time, money, and trouble. You are absolutely that important.

I'm glad to hear that you don't give a rat's ass what I think, 'cause if you did you would feel very, very bad about yourself, clown.

[mkriii]

AGAIN, as i have said before though....it all depends on the person NOT the style.

[SimonM]

It's not hard for someone with some training to call a throw on a green martial artist with no prior wrestling experience. They don't know counters, may not have trained their balance at all and likely freeze up in a grappling situation. Try calling a throw on a person who has trained wrestling and it's much, much harder.

Then fluidity, innovation, surprise and risk taking considerably more important.

BTW: My fave throws:

From clinch: Single Leg Pick & Kickback Throw (it's a tie, usually I'll try both at least once).
From flank: choke / pull back disbalance.
When flanked: Hip toss / shoulder throw (depending on position of opponent's arm and depending on the extent to which I am flanked.)

As a note sprawl works on a grand total of ONE of those throws.

Again, not discounting the importance of the sprawl as a defensive technique, just commenting it's not the be-all and end-all of defense.

[sanjuro_ronin]

AGAIN, as i have said before though....it all depends on the person NOT the style.

And all I am saying is that, where as the fireman's carry is fine for freestyle wrestling because it is NOT a submission based sport, that throw is not as effective in MMA and submission based grappling.

[unkokusai]

For the street maybe. But as a sport it a good takedown. I wouldn't do it in a real fight, no.

A fireman's can be used in 'da street' as well.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

In freetstyle wrestling its fine, in submission grappling or MMA it leaves you open to chokes and the crucifix ( for example) and a slew of arm locks.
A modified Fireman's carry that doesn't use both arms as much ( uses one really with the other just for "nudging") is better and leaves you less vulnerable.

Reply]
Can you show a Youtube example of the modified version?

[unkokusai]

It's not hard for someone with some training to call a throw on a green martial artist with no prior wrestling experience. They don't know counters, may not have trained their balance at all and likely freeze up in a grappling situation. Try calling a throw on a person who has trained wrestling and it's much, much harder.

To which Jethro there will now reply that he is a grappling god because he WAS able to hit his superhuman fireman's 20 years ago against 'trained' wrestlers in the form of spastic uncoordinated goobers from Eastnowhere High. Fear him.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Reply]
Can you show a Youtube example of the modified version?

Its simple really, now how you do a typical Fireman's carry and you hook the leg with the right hand/arm for example? that is what leaves you open to getting locked up, so instead of hooking the arm you keep it bend, place the elbow or upper arm on the hip and as you pul with the other hand, you nudge over without extending or commiting the arm, less control but doesn't leave you open to being locked up.

[mkriii]

Ok Rudy, be right there. Letting some semi-literate racist backwater moron try his lame-ass Eastnowhere HS fireman's on me is absolutely worth the time, money, and trouble. You are absolutely that important.

I'm glad to hear that you don't give a rat's ass what I think, 'cause if you did you would feel very, very bad about yourself, clown.

You know what, I'm not some backwater moron. And I'm very literate. I can also kick your butt any day of the week and twice on Sunday if I felt like it. Either shut the F**** up or put up. Simple as that.

It's not hard for someone with some training to call a throw on a green martial artist with no prior wrestling experience.
Then fluidity, innovation, surprise and risk taking considerably more important.

I wasn't telling a martial artist I was going to do a fireman's carry, I was at a wrestling tournament against other wrestlers and pulling it off.

[mkriii]

To which Jethro there will now reply that he is a grappling god because he WAS able to hit his superhuman fireman's 20 years ago against 'trained' wrestlers in the form of spastic uncoordinated goobers from Eastnowhere High. Fear him.

Once again Unk you are all wrong.....Jethro is not my name and the person you are referring to was from Arkansas not Kentucky. If your going to make a joke like that at least get the friggin state right, okay? Where the hell are you from anyways? Have you ever been to Kentucky in your life? And is that all you can come back with is comments about where I'm from? You truely are a retard then.

[SimonM]

To which Jethro there will now reply that he is a grappling god because he WAS able to hit his superhuman fireman's 20 years ago against 'trained' wrestlers in the form of spastic uncoordinated goobers from Eastnowhere High. Fear him.

I'd be willing to call 99% of highschool wrestlers green martial artists.

1-4 years of non-submission grappling does not make for a complete fighter.

And I am speaking from experience. I won a gold medal in wrestling in middle school... I won with a sprawl. I was also a kid. The adult game is a whole different WORLD.

And submissions add an entirely new element.

As do strikes.

[unkokusai]

Reply]
Can you show a Youtube example of the modified version?

Hard to find a vid, but since the majority of the unbalancing comes from the penetration and position of your body relative to his you can keep the inside arm fairly tucked in using that elbow or just the shoulder to move the body while using the other arm to guide the completion. Of course this moves the degree of likelihood down and complicates things if you don't finish and have to scramble (from a wrestlling perspective - it keeps you a little more out of trouble from a submission perspective).

[unkokusai]

I'd be willing to call 99% of highschool wrestlers green martial artists.

1-4 years of non-submission grappling does not make for a complete fighter.

Don't get me wrong. Some of the best high school wrestlers in the country are freakin' animals, but that is something of the exception and certainly doesn't include Jethro there.