Why wing chun dosn't work

[iblis73]

WT is a BOXING style. From leung tings poster:wing tsun is a method of chinese pugilism. Pugilism is boxing, or striking and parrying with the hands. This can be done as a sport or self defense. As it is, I don't see WT becoming a "sport" anywhere.

Real World Self Defense skills-the ability to survive a street fight vs. a highly skilled assailant.

As for how to train for these skills, hard workout EVERY time. When my seniors trained us (not the instructor) and in time when I trained the class I would work for some serious conditioning, albeit using wt techniques.

Full contact sparring, within reason, develops excellent self defense skills. But so does full contact reflex drills. For example, get out some mats and work takedowns with a SKILLED partner. Learn how its done, get comfortable with it, then you will be much better of to stop it.

Have a partner put on boxing gloves and come after you. Learn how to parry,evade and shut him down. Its different when someone is really trying to take your head off.

Do sucker punch drills and scenario training. Sucker punch drills can be done 2 ways: defending vs. sucker punch (and I mean here any surprise attack) and ATTACKING with a sucker punch. I found when we did this (the attacking portion), especially with full contact, we become really good at DETECTING similar surprises.

[old jong]

Yeah Rogue. I'm a frenchman and I know wing chun works on me...It is TKD that does'nt!!!

[iblis73]

AS for scenario training, figure out where you might be attacked. An elevator, staircase, sitting on a chair. Put on some headgear and a mouthguard and have someone come after you in said location.

Try the third basemens drill-you stand talking with a partner, with your hands in various positions (eg, on your hips, brushing your hair, etc.) Have him give you a good shove/slap and you have to block/parry/evade and control him without punching/striking him.

Heres another fun one:
Have your students pair up in two lines. One group turns their back to the other group. The second group initiates attackes/takedowns by basically sneaking up behind them and grabbing/throwing them. Need more spice? Have the defenders do it blindfolded.

Here are some real world scenarios you can play with:
You are sitting in your car w/the window down. A helmeted motorcycle rider comes up and grabs you or starts punching you thru the window.

You are in bed with the lights out. You wake up to having a man on top of you attacking you. You're under the sheets. (try doing this in a real bedroom-its not fun.)

You live in a corner apartment, and the light outside is out. Its night. AS you fumble for your keys someone comes around the corner and tackles you or attacks you.

You are sitting in a chair in a computer lab. An angry person comes up and starts threatening you. Then he attacks while you are still seated.

For more ways to do this, check out Tony Blauers Panic Attack series from Panther productions.

[iblis73]

Gongfu has traditionally in China been referred to as a boxing method. Thus the term "Chinese Boxing". Thats why theres white crane boxing, plum flower boxing, etc. Obviously these methods incorporate more than just fists and striking with them, but its important to note.

[iblis73]

PS I love wing tsuns techniques, but thats all wing tsun really is. The training isn't up to par for street combat, imho. Again, I want to clarify this is based on what I've seen. I'd love to train wing tsun with a heavy focus on the basics and lots of self defense training.

I also want to recomend that people should visit tony blauers website. He heads tactical confrontation management systems. People I've seen NO ONE address the psychological and adrenal problems of fighting in more detail. His tapes are unreal-I just bought a set and after watching them I can't bring myself to train in even a vale tudo school. They're really unbelievable.

And while I focus a bit much on the fighting side, its only becuase the consequences of losing can be tremendous. Just think, as your reading this, or as you go home tonight, there could be someone that is going to try to kill you-for your money,becuase you're in the way, or just becuase. Has your training prepared you for a life and death struggle???

[OdderMensch]

ever get out to Fort Worth? You'd like our kwoon.

hows this for a drill :

one person is surrounded by two others. one person does a grab, then as soon as it is counterd person two does another grab. As soon as thats "done" attacker #1 steps back up, and so on and so on. you try and give the "defender" 0 time to think/breathe between attacks.

you get real dizzy real quick, but learn to stay on your feet and relaxed.

[whippinghand]

So, basically, you're saying that you train a sport, not a martial art.

[mun hung]

What in the world are you people talking about? Take up a self defence class instead of Wing Chun to learn how to fight??? What would you suggest - karate? (sorry rogue) Are you people serious? What kind of Wing Chun/Wing Tsun are you learning anyway?

This is probably the reason why Wing Chun, yes Wing Chun is in the state that it's in. You talk about all kinds of drills, but they are all worthless if they can't help you in a fight. After all; was'nt Wing Chun developed to teach a person how to fight efficiently in a short amount of time.

In fact, I have a very realistic drill that you should try. Have the biggest strongest guy you know walk up to you and punch you or kick you as hard as he can. If you can't do anything to stop him I suggest you quit practicing and just buy a gun.

Double bong sau???

[kungfu cowboy]

Wing chun should work anywhere. . Even with eye gouges and throat strikes excluded.

[fmann]

Like I said though, it's not the system, but the training methods that are poor. Different people train it differently. Just like any martial art, you'll have some people that are good and some that are out to make money.

At least I know that here in the NYC, we keep it real. As real is real. .

[Novox77]

If you haven't already, check out GM Keith Kernspecht's book "BlitzDefence." The sole purpose of the book is to address the psychological aspects of realistic street confrontations, and how/why the principles we learn in WT/WC are the best for defending one's self. From all of your previous posts, it seems to me that you feel there's a disconnect between your WT training and applying what you know in a realistic situation. This book will help out a lot, IMO.

[Novox77]

You said:

"At least I know that here in the NYC, we keep it real. As real is real. ."


Putting some realism in practice (realism meaning more realistic, faster, stronger attacks) can be beneficial to your training, but if it's done every day or very often, it tends to make you stiff and spastic. The majority of training should be to develop contact reflexes with drills such as chi sao. Chisao is not intended to be a sparring drill where both people are trying to beat the crap out of each other in a weird set of rules. In good time and training, you'll develop a large set of contact reflexes, and defending realistic attacks will become effortless. An occasional day for realism (like once a month or two) is good to gauge how much you can rely on your wingchun to defend against a realistic encounter.

[old jong]

Too much emphasis on "sparring" and "self-defense tricks" is not cultivating Wing Chun skills! The biggest part of training should be on Chi sau in every ways and related drills. Real progress can be checked once in a while to see if you are not imitating Bruce Lee or something!

[iblis73]

When we say its better to train a self defense method than a TMA, we mean better than any TMA, karate included. Think of cops and commandos: they don't have the time to learn a whole system. So basically a systems like American Combatives, though I feel even that has some limitations in regards to some grappling and boxing moves. After that the person should move on to a more formal system.

Mun Hung, thats actually a very good idea for a drill. Having a large person come up and punch and kick you a full force would be great. The key is to do it more than once and from various angles.

An over realiance on sparring should make one very smooth and it would certainly help cultivate your wing tsun skills. Chi sao is great but only a contact reflex. Also, these are not self defense "tricks" as I'm describing them-they are drills to help you react in a spontaneous way using your techniques. In each drill I mentioned THERE IS NO PRESET COUNTER. Really the drills are good for intermediate students (or higher) so they can already have a set of techniques to use.

For the record I don't think highly of Bruce Lee and I've never studied a sport, with the exception of 2 godawful yrs. of tkd.

I'd like to check out the Blitzdefence book. I've got 2 copies of on single combat, one of the best written MA books ever (I have a spanish edition too-

Odder, do you train under Cottrell? I liked his website, impressive background to say the least!

[iblis73]

Also for the record my old instructor was very good technically speaking.