Why wing chun dosn't work

[iblis73]

And since everyone has an opinion I'd appreciate you checking out my other thread NEED SOME ADVICE and gimme' some advice!

Thanks

[Steven T. Richards]

Hello iblis,

You raise some very good points, and you take a risk posting in that way on a single style forum. There will always be the emotive
barriers to get by when people think that their belifs and personal values are being attacked or undermined - even when they may not be, but rather some intelligent and reflective questions are being asked.

The problem is that any 'reference group' that identifies itself as a martial arts style will immediately react defensively, rather than think about how different they all actually are from one another.

All Wing-Chun is not the same, and yet the answers to your points tend (not exclusively so) to suggest that it is.

Surely, it should be whose Wing-Chun and which practitioners in what sitautions etc. Thought about that way, differences become less of a threat and more interesting as well as more informative.

I must say that as for a martial art being contrasted with a martial sport, well, at least with the latter (if you mean MMA, NHB Cage etc) then there demonstrable results. It is easy to claim that
a martial art is 'deadly' etc, but, where is the proof of that for a given individual? How many dead in street fights?

A lot of traditional martial arts from all Pai and systems lose some measure of credibility when their practitioners simply mouth on about other peoples fights - real or imagined and gain their 'deadly skills' vicariously or otherwise by proxy. That is a virtual world and nothing more.

I have no doubt that many Wing-Chun people are great not only at their 'art' but also at fighting for their lives. I also have no doubt that a lot of martial artists have never been tested other than in their imaginations.

You have raised very interesting points, and hopefully you'll get a net response that errs on the side of maturity, reflection and real experience, not just for Wing-Chun but for us all.

[Novox77]

Iblis,

Blitzdefence is basically a focused area of study that offshoots from the logic Kernspecht presented in "On Single Combat." In "OSC" he convinces you why WT/WC is the best defense. In Blitzdefence, he convinces you how to utilize this best defense when there's a thug itching to beat the stuffing out of you. I was more drawn to the psychology of the thug and of the defender in realistic situations, and I felt he hit the nail on the head in describing those feelings of apprehension in the crucial moments before and during the fight. It also addresses the legal considerations of fighting and techniques you can use to maximize your leverage in court, should the need arise.

[alienofwar]

Here is a real situation.

How about having a pistol pointed right behind your head? Where is your real world self-defense techniques now big boy?

Like Bruce Lee said, the classical martial arts are living in the past. The modern day self-defense is a good gun at your side.

Unless you live in Canada, then your only self defense is a martial art, or a hockey stick! Now thats a real fight!

[Novox77]

alienofwar: funny you should mention that, because GM Kernspecht states flat out in "On Single Combat" that the best self defense system is the Smith and Wesson system (that's a gun manufacturer for those of you unfamiliar with guns).

No one is saying that empty hand martial arts is the universal solution for ALL possible hostile situations in the real world. But I'm inclined to believe that my chances of engaging in a weaponless confrontation is much greater than encountering someone pointing a gun at me. And if one day, every person on a street carries a gun, then I'll believe that empty-hand martial arts are obsolete.

And how do you suppose having a gun will help if someone already has a gun pointed at you?

[alienofwar]

I live in Canada so I dont really worry about guns. Although I dont know how true the stories are in the states, but I hear guns are fairly common and that you never know if the person you get into a fight with might be carrying a gun. Come to think of it, most people would be afraid to use a gun just to steal a few bucks, so maybe martial arts would be effective. But what do I care, the only thing I must worry about up here is pepper spray...but wait even that is illegal to use!

[iblis73]

WT and many other systems can be effective at fighting. By doing scenario based drills in various real world locations you develop better spontanaity (god I can't spell the freekin word) and the ability to improvise.

I also believe that real world self defense includes the use of sticks, knives, improvised weapons. I am also a firm believer that to be well rounded you need some good firearms training-pistol and shotgun at minimum, prefereably also some exposure to assault weapons. And yes, I am currently seeking expert instruction in firearms training. Fortunately I've found out about Thunder Ranch which is not to far from San Antonio.

Estampale espurs!

[fmann]

Exactly. And how many people will accost you with guns? I live in NYC, up in Harlem, and ain't never been harassed by nobody with a gat. Shivs and what not, yeah, but most thugs realize that smoking a 9 will get you 5 to life more so than blades will -- at least you can dispose of the latter easier than the former.

That's what I talking about keeping it real. And keeping it gangsta.

As for WT/WC/VT, a good teacher will always be willing to explore new methods of teaching and conveying the concepts. Teaching and learning is a complementary affair -- good teachers develop from good students, and good students develop from good teachers. If one person is not conveying something realistically enough or clearly enough, it is up to the students to point that out and work towards improvement. It's a synergistic affair.

There is no answer to why something doesn't work, only why something appears to not be working. And that appearance is due to the people, not the system. You train realistically, you'll more likely be able to deal with things realistically. If all you do is drills and chi sao all day and don't know how to control/channel/react to fear, then what will you do when a pcp crazed thug wants to wax your @ss?

Oximoronically, the answer to the above rhetorical question is you pack your @ss up and run. Unless you tote a high caliber, that is.

[Novox77]

The stereotype goes that people down south in the US are the gun totin' folk, with their gun racks on their truck and in their home. I do agree in general that people down south are the ones who tend to own guns. I grew up in Georgia, and we had 2 handguns, a shotgun, and a rifle. You would be weird if while you were growing up, you never went out into the woods to shoot at small wildlife, at least with a BB gun/rifle. But most of these people keep their guns at home. Either they enjoy collecting guns, they hunt with them, or they keep them for defense against burglary. It's uncommon to carry a gun on you when you went out.

We stress in WT that there is no guarantee of defense when your attacker is armed. While we have techniques against basic stick, knife, and gun attacks, we warn all students to not fall into a false sense of security. Any person who is expert in using a stick, knife, or gun will quickly and easily hurt you or kill you if all you have are your 2 bare hands. Sometimes, running away, or surrendering your wallet is your best defense.

[whippinghand]

Originally posted by iblis73
Chi sao is great but only a contact reflex.

I'm sorry, are you on the right forum? Or did you mistake this for JKD?

[Majic Sam]

Just two words for y'all-KAZUSHI SAKURABA!-Whoah,sorry about that,I thought I was at Sherdog's for a moment!

[iblis73]

I did not mistake this for a JKD forum, I have never practiced JKD so I'm lost as to the analogy.

Who is SAKURABA?

[whippinghand]

Originally posted by iblis73
I did not mistake this for a JKD forum, I have never practiced JKD so I'm lost as to the analogy.

An excellent choice of word: lost

[Majic Sam]

Kazushi Sakuraba is the worlds top 185 lb. Mixed Martial Arts competitor.I see on your profile that you study BJJ,so be warned,Saku is known as the Gracie hunter.He has beaten 4 Gracie family members in an event known as Pride,which is a more brutal Japanese version of the UFC.He is BJJ's worst nightmare,having beaten Royce,Renzo,Ryan and Royler Gracie.Fight fans worldwide are anxiously waiting for Rickson Gracie to step up and defend the family name(oh,the drama),but Rickson seems content avoiding this match,saying that Saku has 'no aura'(sure dude...).

Sakuraba is a former Japanese tv wrestler who is well versed in Catch Wrestling submission,Muay Thai kicks and generally just being an all around clown.He is the most popular MMArtist in Japan,and has only lost twice.Both to Brazil's Vanderlai Silva,who is a Chute Boxe(BJJ,Muay Thai) team member,also known as "The Axe Murderer".Saku gave up nearly 20 lbs to Silva,and lost most recently from a broken collarbone/shoulder due to a body slam.Any serious BJJ player would do well to familiarize w/ Saku's skills in order to learn the drawbacks in BJJ.

[yuanfen]

Iblis comments and Richard answers:

The thread is getting muddled but some comments follow:
wing chun has spread so fast that most of it is junk. So some of your questions about the reliability of the art for self defense
desrves consideration. However, I dont see much wing chun knowledge either in both your postings.(I do not know you as persons and I make no comments on you as persons apart from your comments here). Very good Chinese martial arts are not mass produced. Even Yip Man genuinely taught only a few students- the rest went out the same door they came in.