Sex and Chi (again)

[Nexus]

There are many different kinds of chi, and it appears you summed them all up into one version which you call this "spiritual chi". You are correct in the sense that this chi is infinite as we indeed are as much a part of the universe as we are part of ourselves. However, perhaps you need to understand exactly what pre-natal chi is.

Pre-natal chi is in fact the chi our body has. It is the chi that we received while in our mothers womb through our embillical chord at our belly button. This is the very reason why chi kung and taiji all focus breathing to the lower dantien at the point 2 inches below the navel. Do some research in this particular area of taoist thought and you will find your answers.

- Nexus

[Repulsive Monkey]

You're getting closer but you're still wrong even if you think you're not believe me you are! You seem to be mixing up all kinds of references and spanning whole topics with mere generalised terms. So far what you have labelled Qi as essence which for Chinese they would assume your talking about Jing in that sense. You've mentioned the term Original Qi which for the Chinese they would recognise as Yuan Qi. Post and Pre-Natal Qi (which is the key here to your understanding/misunderstanding) hasn't been directly mentioned by you if it did it would clarify some understanding. Spirit which the Chinese would assume you mean as Shen. So, so far we have these terms: Jing, Qi, Shen, Pre-natal Qi and Post natal Qi. I daren't mention Gu Qi, Zong Qi, Wei Qi, Zheng Qi and Yin Qi as I'm sure they would push this thread into the absolute realsm of misunderstanbding x 10. And hen you talk about spirit are you collectivley thinking of Shen, Hun, Po, Yi, and Zhi????? or not????

[harry_the_monk]

I practice the 5 precepts you speak of, and was worried about the one you recieve from a monk or nun(celebacy.)

Do you have to practise retention for that one? Retention is something I may try towards after reading this thread, but am interested in the higher doctrines you talk of. Is this to do with the movement of seed to the different chakras you have spoken of before?

I would ask my lama but for the fact I fear to ask her such detailed questions. Do you also know if I will need to practise retention on retreat?

[scotty1]

Respectfully,

"Jing IS FINITE, it DOES NOT get replenished.....FACT!!"

How does a concept become established as 'fact' in TCM or Taoist thought, without any evidence? How do you 'know' that Jing is finite?

[Nexus]

We know because people get older and their bodies deteriorate as they use up jing throughout their lives.

Here is a direct example. In Taoist meditation, reverse breathing uses jing to express power. So, when someone is doing t'ai chi, after they have learnt the form, they will begin to do it with a reverse breath rather than a cultivating breath. So, when a person does this t'ai chi, it uses up post and pre-natal chi, although they are cultivating (you hope) a good deal of post-natal chi in their chi kung outside of doing t'ai chi to balance out the energy used.

So... to complete the example, when a woman gives childbirth she is also reverse breathing. She is told to exhale as she pushes, which is a reverse breath or hence using energy. Ever heard of women dying while giving child birth? In chinese medicine it is interpreted as using up all of their pre-natal chi in the act of childbirth.

Another example of people who do things their bodies would normally not allow for due to strenuous situations such as the story of the "mother lifting the car to save her child" and often that uses excessive amounts of pre-natal chi.

So by cultivating post-natal chi, the taoists are able to prolong longevity and increase the healthy living of the life they already have because they use 'less' of the chi they were given from birth and 'more' of the chi they have spent cultivating in their life.

This is about as 'laymen' as it gets.

- Nexus

[The Willow Sword]

that some of you need to explore other cultures and concepts of chi or essence in the body rather than centralizing your knowledge and opinions on just Taoist thought. i dont dis-count that some of what the old texts say is right on the money,,HOWEVER,,,i will still maintain that chi is what is described as life energy in the body. it seems strange to me that it is broken down into these subtexts likie post natal chi and prenatal chi. as with the ageing process related to the body;s "deterioration" of jing or essence is purely speculative and has no REAL scientific OR spiritual bases. there is a blending here in this country of western thought and eastern. AS to which train of thought is the most viable and acceptable well, ill say this: the taoists thought at one time that when your stomach rumbled or ached it was because snakes were crawling around in there and had to be drawn out.
ill leave it up to the geniouses here to decide which explanation is uhhh ,,, REALISTIC. in the meantime i will also state that MOST spiritual doctrines will contend that the life essence of the body is constant and never ending while it is the flesh that is mortal and naturallly detriorates with time and use. when i put the subject of CHI into this spiritual category i merely sugeest that the reason i do is because what the eastern mindset explains as chi in simple terms is this "energy" or "force"(haha) if you will that makes up the life essence of everything cosmic and spiritual. the taoists WERE NOT Athiests so in that respect the conceot of chi has its spiritual value first and foremost. i merely contend that the chi or spirit is undying and when it comes to the spirit or chi that we have in our bodies it is infinite as we are all according to western thought IE" Einsteins thoery of relativity,,,specifically there is nothing that can be destroyed it only changes into something else.

now maybe we can discuss this with out Nexus being condescending or anyone else who is so certain that i am totally wrong on this.. for i do not believe that i am certain of this ideology,,but i feel a certain amount of correctness in it.
so lets lower our arrogance and have a decent discussion with out too much mud slinging.

MAny Respects,,The Willow Sword

[Repulsive Monkey]

You are right in that Qi is infinite, for it is it perpetuates vis its nature to constantly move. The Tao Te Jing says that that which is alive as energy but that which does not move is without. However the point is, is that Jing is not infinite I think this is the point that was trying to be made a few times. Jing will constitutionally speaking will always be represented by the flesh and body and therefore you yourself in what you have just said will back me up in the fact that the body (and the jing) is finite. The spirit body remians after the body slips away. The ageing process whithers it so as to not be efficient at processing and maintining Qi anymore for a nourishing existence and therefore the body deteriorates and the spirit body slips out of it and as you say IS infinite. The Taoists of old saw Taoism as being a science and could scientifically explain it as such, and can be still today. However if people have a limited knowledge and experience of Taoist alchemy then yes they will view it as unscientific and mysterious where it plainly is not. And saying that Taoist thought does not add on a spiritual basis is erroneous Willow. What were you thinking of when you came out with that statement?
Again I still feel your understanding is a bit sketchy in places on Taoist disciplines as its obvious that it falls in line with all other disciplines scientific and spiritual. Can you explain what Taoist practices you do and who you are taught by? What does your teacher tell you?
By the way I'm not mud slinging here I'm just trying to see the root of where you are coming from with your statements.

[Repulsive Monkey]

I did make that comment a little out of exasperation alittle so sorry to drive the point home a little too loudly there. However Jing is definitely finite. Evidence in TCM is through also has its roots in original Taoist practices and Taoist scientific analysis. The Taoists gained sharp perception into internal research through their insights and they used their evolved perceptions in exactly the same way as a scientist would use a microscope etc. and I personally have no qualms in the difference in tools used. I persoannly believe that they are both classed as scientific means of examination. The Taoists realised that which was infinite, replenishable and perishable through their analysis of the human workings. If you practice your internal arts you still start to realise these things yourself. This practice is open to all who are willing to practice hard and study dilligently. I am limited myself in my practice but I too in a moderate way so far in my studies am gaining nbig insights into my body and internal states. This is realisation of the body and Qi as the Taoist practiced, and a good teacher will be able to guide you so as to gain this information too. And yes internal information gained is as objective as a scientific experiment.

[regulator]

what kinda smoke are you crackin Willow?

both of the largest spiritual paradigms in china are enveloped in this concept of Chi that you seem to think you know so much about, and btw philosophical taoism came about way before religious.

who was your taoist teacher anyways, where did you learn your information? did you learn that in shaolin-do?


these concepts have been around for a long long time, longer than you have. take the plugs out of your ears and put them in your mouth, you may learn something. it's not like the ancient chinese said 'hey this whole chi thing sure sounds cool, i'll make it up and add to it' no, they saw something that fit their concepts and it was revised over time. just because you don't understand the concept well enough doesn't make it wrong.

[The Willow Sword]

need to REREAD my above post. i did not discount the sprirtual significance of the taoists. And NO i did not learn the things that I HAVE learned at SD. do i have to BROADCAST A POST THAT I AM NO LONGER WITH SD? should i post it on every single forum here so that it gets through all of your thick skulls?

humans have the ablility to procreate. AND TO REPLENISH THE STUFF WHICH ALLOWS US TO PROCREATE.(sperm) true when the sperm is released there is a certain amount of weakness that occurs in the body. but this is REPLENISHED through the body's ability to REPLENISH ITSELF. just as the liver replenishes itself and just as cells regenrate in our body.
the mystery of ageing and deterioration of the body in my opinion DOES NOT have anything to do with the sperm being realeased. like i have stated before if it were then we would have all dried up and died a Long time ago(as adolesents when we couldnt keep our hands off of our wangers).
how does a plant rejuvenate itself realistically? with sun and water and the ground it lives in. these are contributing outside factors that susatin the life of the plant. so now we come to mammals and animals. what do we do to replenish ourselves? we eat ,,drink and breathe. these are what we KNOW for sure to be true. where the question comes in and the mystery is the concepts of spirit and cosmos as well as this inner essence the Taoists speak of. to me, the body deteriorates and grows old due to OUTSIDE factors. NOT within us. if we look at history we have accounts of people living to be over 400 -700 yrs old. and why? was thier "JING" stronger? was it better genetics? did they not jack off? this would counter and go against what we believe to be evolution. so going on this tangent i would have to conclude that outside factors contribute to the deterioration of the organic being. ie; pollution: poor diet; abnormal genetics brought about by poor diet and pollution, the universe closing in on itself at a faster rate, our solar system rotating faster than it did during ancient and biblical times. whether you want to accept it or not WE ARE connected into everything.
in our whole existance we have tried to solve that mystery of ageing and immortality. we drum up ways to explain why we do this or that. the Taoists have one way, others have other ways.
what i merely state is that not all of what the Taoists say is right on, and i base this on a combination of what "science" tells us, and what certain spiritual concepts of cultures OTHER than that of the chinese.

Many Respects, The Willow Sword.

[Nexus]

Willow,

If your teacher were to tell you the same thing's repulsive monkey and I have would you still refuse to believe it and deny it with your scientific explanation of sperm and its replenishment?

Your analysis is just like somebody saying that if you stop self-gratification all together and have no sexual experiences where sperm is released, that it would build up to such a high volume that your ball sack would explode.

However, we know that also not to be the case, however it's logic is about the equivalence of yours, however yours is a western vs eastern logic, whereas the example I gave would be western vs western & eastern.

Point being? Until you have experienced the increase in internal energy and high levels of cultivation that conservation of the jing energy through sperm retention brings, you have little empirical data to support what you are saying. On the other hand you are full of existential data which is fine, some people will be satisfied and comfortable living out their entire lives never experiencing the things they seem to 'know so much about'.

I recommend you give try it yourself before disregarding it as taoist mysticm. I would be much more inclined to accepting your information were you to say, "Well guys, I tried semen retention and taoist methods of cultivation for six months and noticed no changes" rather than

if it was true that our "original chi" was depleted every time we expelled semen and that we lost a portion of it and could not replace it,then we would die in a manner of days

which obviously states little or no understanding of taoist internal alchemy.

- Nexus

[The Willow Sword]

Yeah and a horse has no udders and a cow cant whinny. and up is down and sideways is straight ahead.

i know it must get depressing up there in Alaska what with the perpetual daylight and the cabin fever and it being colder than a well diggers butt. in an area that is in constant yin i would think that one would need to be constantly yanged up. so retain all you want and believe that it will make you live for a 150 yrs or more. lets say 200 yrs. you are gonna wish you had expelled more when that testosterone level takes a nose dive in your 50's.
oh im sorry i am being illogical again.

Many Respects, The Willow Sword

[Repulsive Monkey]

without being insulting your last comment has turned from misunderstanding to immaturity now. Nexus has quite openly and soundly suggested a western scientific approach (probably to appease you!) in that of experimenting!!! He is offering you an answer by using a western scientific method to either refute or compound the claims of the Taoist traditions. He made the suggestion in fairness and with reasonable speech, and then you go and make comments like that!
FACT - constant sperm depletion = Jing depletion
FACT - Jing is finite

You are still however getting a little closer each time though Williow in that all those external factors you mentioned do have a dabilitating effect upon our bodies you are right, but why can't you understand that many internal factors can have a dabiloitating effect too, i.e. the wasting of constitutional energy (JING!)?

I feel rather your pride is not willing to let go of this issue, and emotional attachment is supporting your pride. A real sign Williow here would be for you to exercise your egoless compassion.

[The Willow Sword]

repulsive monkey you have shown me the error of my ways,Nexus isnt being a condescending little pr!ck to me,hes offerring me "open" and "sound" ways to discover the lost secrets of immortality.

OPINION: "FACT;jing is finite"

OPINION: " FACT: constant sprem depletion=jing depletion"

if all this is FACT then i will become a millionarre in 2 days.
"gee i hope it is i hope it is"

Many Respects, The Willow Sword

[Repulsive Monkey]

Sarcasm is so droll you know! These comments are not based on opinion there are based on scientifically experimented observations. Are you saying that the sun radiates warmth is an opinon, or that dropping a glass cup from a height onto concrete will make it smash is an opinio? Please Willow enlighten as (as it has been asked several times time with an avoidance to answer) who your teacher is who has taught you these alternate understandings of Taoist practise and concepts. Please let us know how long you have been practisinf Taoist cultivation to realsie that me and Nexus are deluded and fanatacial in grasping and embracing mysterious and hocus-pocus ideas that are unprovable.Please!!!!?