Is TCM actually the placebo effect?

[Fu-Pow]

I've been reading two books simultaneously, one is called simply "The Placebo Effect." The other is called "The Yellow Emperor's Classic on Internal Medicine." Both allude to the fact that TCM can only help prevent or relieve the some the symptoms of disease not cure it. Bringing into question its actual mechanism. Is it possible that it is simply the placebo effect at work?

Fu-Pow



"Choy Lay Fut Kung Fu does not encourage its students to abuse or harm others with no reason. Nevertheless, in times when Kung Fu must be performed, Choy Lay Fut requires the student to change from a gentleman into a fierce and cold fighter."

-Lee Koon Hung,
CLF:The Dynamic Art of Fighting

[illusionfist]

TCM is proactive and Western medicine for the most part is reactive.

Go get some acupuncture and see how it feels. Its something that can't be explained over these means.

Peace :D

[Fish of Fury]

i find it odd that people always talk about SIMPLY or MERELY placebo effect.
placebo itself can be a powerful healing tool, and is underresearched and often ignored.
having said that, i'm personally pretty confident that there's more to TCM than placebo

__________________________________________________ _________________________ "I'm just trying to lull you into a genuine sense of security!"

[dunbarj01]

Alot of research is being conducted in to TCM at the moment (as well as in the past few years) and due to the volume of TCM such a blanket question is not really worthwhile. As far as I know, some medical practices and medicines have been validated whereas research into other materials/ingredients has shed new light on applications unthought of. In the former group, I have seen that liqourice root has proven to have anti-inflammaotry actions and I believe this is a common ingredient in Dit Da Jow. I think one of the good things about the western scientific approach to validating TCM is that it may eventaully lead to a TCM codex/pharmacopea if one doesn't already exist.

[joedoe]

I agree with Fish - there is a lot to be said about the Placebo Effect. I also agree that there is more to TCM than the Placebo Effect. I doubt that a system of medicine and treatment would have lasted so long on the Placebo Effect.

cxxx[]:::::::::::>
What we do in life echoes in Eternity

[dunbarj01]

That's a good point. If your placebos worked for a couple of thousand years, they'd have to be the full strength ones! :eek: :D :eek: :D

Okay, I'll just go over there... :rolleyes:

[Nexus]

Umm that is a pretty funny question but you should look at the facts: TCM has been used in terms of acupuncture as an anesthetic. That means in laymens terms, if it were a placebo effect, it would have to be an amazingly powerful one considering thousands of people have undergone surgeries using only acupuncture as the primary source of pain numbing. It seems to have been kept around up until now.

- Nexus

<font size="1">"Time, space, the whole universe - just an illusion! Often said, philosophically verifiable, even scientifically explainable. It's the <font color="blue">'just'</font> which makes the honest mind go crazy and the <font color="blue">ego</font> go berserk." - Hans Taeger</font>

[kull]

One interesting fact that is that placebo effects statistically has a success rate of ABOUT 30%. TCM has a higher success rate than that. On mitigating withdrawl sypmtoms from drug addiction it has about 70-80% success rate.

For physical rehabilitation one study (sorry, forgot the univ. that conducted the study) shows a higher success rate than that of physical therapy alone; more than 75%.

In an ancient medical text titled "Shang Hun Lun" Zhang Zhong Jin, successfully recorded and treated what many scholars believe, what would be called today "Typhoid Fever", this was about 2,500 yrs ago.

Also, and most IMPORTANT FACT in debunking the "placebo effect" champions, is the fact that acupuncture has been done on ANIMALS, with approximately the same success rate.

70%> is about, the standards for effective treatment for any new drug, therapy, procedure....etc. Coincidentally, it was also the standard in ancient Imperial China, in judging a successful physician from a useless one.
( Alternative Medicine for Dummies; by Dr.Dillard, MD,DC,CAc)

[bearpaw]

To last 3000 years, TCM as a placebo would have to work very very well. better yet it works on scatipics too.

[origenx]

Funny thing is - the "placebo effect" is basically a scientific admission of the validity of the mind-body link.

Nonetheless, I've had actual physical marks left on my body as a result of TCM treatments, so I doubt it's simply and solely a "placebo effect."

[Repulsive Monkey]

If you thought that the Yellow Eporor's Classic made TCM out to be the Placebo effect, then unfortunately you may of misunderstood it. It is in fact quite the opposite. And yes, diseases CAN be cured. This in itself sounds like a generalisation, but it depends on situations and the probability of ones own health and the surrounding influencing factors also.

[Fu-Pow]

Here's the direct quote from The Placebo Effect: and Interdisciplinary approach, edited by Anne Harrison.

"Acupuncture , the most extensively used treatment in China for 2500 years, is still in use, with incursions into Western countries. However, acupuncture has probably been more harmful than helpful, since is likely that unsterilized needles were responsible for ****logous serum jaundice, which was endemic in China for centuries. Although Veith (1972) concludes that "the maintenance of these cumbersome and probably painful methods of treatment must indicate that they possess healing power," the Yellow Emperor inadvertently proposed a better explanation. "The ancient sages did not treat those who were already ill," only "those who were not ill." His advice provides a primer for placebo effects: treat only patients who are not seriously ill, likely to improve spontaneously, and prone to benefit from nonspecific placebo or no treatment."

Fu-Pow



"Choy Lay Fut Kung Fu does not encourage its students to abuse or harm others with no reason. Nevertheless, in times when Kung Fu must be performed, Choy Lay Fut requires the student to change from a gentleman into a fierce and cold fighter."

-Lee Koon Hung,
CLF:The Dynamic Art of Fighting

[joedoe]

Western doctors don't treat those that are terminally ill either - they give them palliative care, but they do not treat the illness.

cxxx[]:::::::::::>
What we do in life echoes in Eternity

[Fu-Pow]

I don't see "terminally" ill in my quote anywhere.
The fact is that while acupuncture is helpful with relieving pain (a neurological phenomena) it has yet to show that it has any real physical effect. And we lack a scientific mechanism for explaining its effects other than that of the placebo effect. The placebo effect itself is a mysterious phenomena, but we do know that like acupuncture it is capable of relieving pain.

Fu-Pow



"Choy Lay Fut Kung Fu does not encourage its students to abuse or harm others with no reason. Nevertheless, in times when Kung Fu must be performed, Choy Lay Fut requires the student to change from a gentleman into a fierce and cold fighter."

-Lee Koon Hung,
CLF:The Dynamic Art of Fighting

[Fish of Fury]

the AMA seems convinced enough to accept acupuncture as a valid form of treatment.
regardless of the yellow emperor quote (which i suspect may be taken out of context, but i'm not sure) modern acupuncture has helped many people with a variety of illnesses...empirical evidence this may be, but it works.(not with 100% efficacy, but then again, nothing does)

science is great, but i think it's attained a cult like following ie. those who question "science" (or anybody in a white coat) are shouted down and their viewpoint not even considered.it reminds me of witches being burned at the stake.
why does a "scientific" theoretical speculation carry more weight than empirical evidence?

__________________________________________________ _________________________ "I'm just trying to lull you into a genuine sense of security!"