There will never be a Mc BJJgrapplingkickboxingnhbdojo.It's impossible.

[chokeyouout2]

There is no speculation in these arts.It's either you do or you don't know how to win.Competition is so enlightening for everybody.It seems to me that in traditional ma's you can run around proclaiming to be the deadliest man alive making historical and psuedo spiritual references to how bad they are.Hell, there's even a guy on this messegeboard showing video clips of him shooting his chi at people.Alot of people buy it.That's great.
To earn respect and self confidence in the ma's I train you must step into the ring,mat,cage or even srteet if forced to.There is no room for well, I would do blahblahblah.If you enter any of these competitions without proper full speed training you could be injured.Anyone who attempts to open a mc whatever better not let any of his students enter into any type of competitions.I wonder how you could convince a wrestler how good he is without ever wrestling himself?Same go's for anything else in life.

Thats my opinion

When you'r telling one of your little stories, here's a idea; Have a point, it makes it so much more interesting for the reader.

[Crimson Phoenix]

Nooooooo, you have to resist, don't fall into the Troll side of the Force!!!
Seriously, some of your points are right, but implying that gong fu never required any testing is stupid...gong fu has been around hundreds of years more than boxing or BJJ, do you think it would have survived if there wasn't any combat efficiency? You think China was such a peaceful place that no convoy needed escorts or no man needed personal protection?
1) Famous fighters were born from pure gong fu, it's a fact. Escort convoys, bodyguards etc...were trained with pure gong fu, nothing else.
2) If you have a gun, do you HAVE to use it to prove yourself or the world that you can shoot? This might sound cheesy to you, but I'm deeply convinced that some people do not care if their art is criticized, but they know they can rely on it when times get rough.
3) Back in the days they trained harder and maybe with a different spirit...for that very reason, gong fu might have worked back in the days better than it does now. Remember: it is a sign of shallow spirit to think that something doesn't work only because you cannot make it work.
After all, self-criticism is much harder than criticizing outside stuffs...

[KnightSabre]

Well said.
It's the same with NHB competitions.In the begginning there were lots of different styles competimg,now there are only a few left.
What does that tell you?

"You're Good Kid Real Good,But As Long As I'm Arround You'll Always Be Second Best See".

[ElPietro]

I don't think vasco is putting down CMAs just saying that there are a lot of bogus schools out there...which I think we can all agree on. But he is saying that in kickboxing/grappling there aren't really bogus schools because you'd know after your first competition or after some sparring that what you have learned isn't practicle. In CMAs you could go to classes for years and never throw your heart into a single attack against anything other than a heavy bag.

Heh you don't see guys setting up and practicing iron palm on each other or eye gouges...but in the MMA scene they are using many of the moves full force, even in sparring situations...I have tried both out and right now I am taking Muay thai simply for the good conditioning aspect and I also like the environment of the club I train at...I have a lot of respect for CMA and will likely go back to kungfu eventually...but is learning a deadly move that you will never be able to practice in your life with any real knowledge of whether or not it works really much of a benefit...when the situation comes you will 99% not use it and if you do it will probably be in bad form because you've never applied it before.

Just my thoughts.

[apoweyn]

well, then, the contrast is between schools that test themselves and schools that don't. not between style A and style B.

the longer BJJ and kickboxing are forces in commercial martial arts, the more chance there is that mcdojo versions will pop up. guys that rely more on their lineage than their own performance. or guys that claim victories in countless 'unsanctioned' bouts. or whatever.

the mcdojos that exist today probably don't meet with the approval of the teachers of yesterday. but they have a system that supports them. the point-fighting circuit, for example, ensures that any mcdojo could proudly display a full front window of trophies. is point fighting what a lot of more traditional teachers had in mind? no, probably not.

so the current teachers of BJJ wouldn't approve of anyone that didn't prove themselves. but already, in the past couple of years, BJJ classes have cropped up all over the place. are they all legit? i doubt it.

and as time goes by, more lax tournaments might be conducted, or credentials will simply be fudged. and more commercial schools will come about. as soon as any art shows its viability to draw a crowd, charlatans come along. it's been that way for virtually every art there is, and it'll continue to be that way.

think about it: how many schools have suddenly professed a knowledge of grappling since the UFC began? you don't think that's going to have an effect as time goes by?

i agree that competition provides another layer of protection against charlatans. but people are never more ingenious than when they're misbehaving. there will be mcdojos for these arts. thus it is written...


nostrastumus

[Boulder Student]

It will close soon after.

The McDojo owner that tries to claim a black belt in BJJ without winning numerous competitions as a brown is going to get destroyed. As soon as word gets out he is claiming a black belt, he will be tested repeatedly by every BJJ player in the REGION.

My BJJ school is a good example. You do not advance until you can consistently apply techniques on the next belt up. So, if I want to to get a blue belt, I have to have an effective game that results in the submission of multiple blue belts before I can become a blue belt. The blue belts have to be able to apply their game consistently to Purples, etc. When strangers come in to test the school, Amal Easton, the owner will hand them to a blue belt. I have yet to see anyone handle one of our blues.

The school has been open for three years. In that time, Amal Easton, has promoted 14+ white belts to blue. Amal's blues can go anywhere in the world and represent the rank well. I have trained at Renzo Gracie's school in NY, and I was amazed at the consistency school to school.

Performance determines rank in BJJ.If you claim rank and cannot perform, you will experience numerous embarassing lessons as the BJJ players in the region test the school. Even after three years, folks wander in to test Amal's school. Most of the locals end up as one of his students. The BJJ McDojo will close under the same constant pressure.

One must toughen up without losing one's tenderness.

[apoweyn]

i hope you're right. i really do. it would be nice to see that sort of resurgence in quality.

but i don't know. today, i'm sure that BJJ is heavily policed. but as it gains in popularity...

my point is that there was no point in the evolution of taekwondo when they said, "you know what, let's go ahead and give these things away." it happened over time. talented and competition-proven black belts realized that they could turn over more of a profit if they just let joe shmo test for the next belt up, where the fees really start to accumulate. and so on.

so while that instructor may have trained under strenuous requirements, perhaps his students do not. and then, gradually, they become teachers. and they have a different standard still. yes the taekwondo community could have spoken up and said, "well sabumnim john doe isn't turning out the quality of students we'd like. so don't take him as a representative of our style." but the general public doesn't know.

i've seen it happen with filipino martial arts too. when they started to catch on, suddenly neighborhood schools had FMA certifications up on the wall. but they were certifications of completion of seminars and the like. but new students don't know that. as far as they're concerned, they're learning eskrima from a legitimate teacher.

is the legitimate eskrima community unhappy about it? i'd imagine so, yes. but can they police it completely? no, i don't think so.

i think that BJJ is going to have the same problem. i don't think that local people going around to test these new instructors is really going to happen. not on a widespread basis.

but like i said, i really hope i'm wrong. perhaps i'm just being cynical. i do think that competition gives an extra safety catch that some other styles don't have. i just don't trust that it'll be enough. not in the long run.


stuart b.

[Merryprankster]

Ap,

You are exactly correct, but so is Boulder.

You are right in that many McDojo's are teaching "grappling," or "some BJJ." These schools though, don't show up at competitions, and if they did, would get murdered.

A school that had a McBlackbelt (would you like some fries and a gi with that?) in BJJ, as per that one link from yesterday, would quickly get found out.

I guess what I'm trying to say is this: Let's say I own a Kempo School and I look at BJJ and say "hmmm, neat stuff." I go learn some things, and incorporate it into my training so I teach "some BJJ."

If somebody learns that from the Kempo school, receives their belt in that school, and then tries to open a school that heavily advertises BJJ, he and his students are going to get murdered by every BJJ school in the area, and eventually blacklisted. I know it won't necessarily keep the idiots from going there and claiming BJJ, but that's a LOT of idiots to perpetuate the myth, in the face of so much evidence! :) And I've found that most people when "shown the light," so to speak, see it for what it is.

I mean, one of the first things people who are looking for a BJJ school might ask, if they do some research, is "How'd we do at the Pan-Am's or Mundials?" Plus, most who get interested in BJJ get interested because they see it in the UFC or some such... so the schools tend to attract guys who like to be active and bang around. We get a lot of seals and marines and law enforcement.

I do believe that there is a chance that BJJ might get McDojo'd, but I think the chance is reduced by all the competitions. The continuing influx from Brazil always helps too.

And I agree that it's the difference between "competing (in a live active sense), and non-competing schools," not style vs. style.

[Shaolindynasty]

There is one in our area. It's not doing that well but it is still open. The teacher has 1 fight under his belt in kickboxing. He is teaching Kickboxing and BJJ. Also there are alot of kickboxing Mcdojos around. Check out your local Cardio Kickboxing class, there are probally tons of people in there thinking they are a total bad ass. Also with so many "world championships" out there it is hard to know who is good and who isn't, unless you have a celebraty in your area. To think BJJ is heavily policed in all areas is a mistake, nobody can watch everything. Everybody tries to come up with a "grappling" program, wouldn't most of these be considered Mcdojos?


www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net

[KC Elbows]

So what you're saying is that competition saves a style from mcdojo. I'm sure all the TKD people are breathing a sigh of relief right now.

[Merryprankster]

Kickboxing has been McDojo'd for years.

Teaching some BJJ is different than claiming a Black Belt and opening a BJJ focused school.

[Merryprankster]

The quality of TKD is going to drastically improve with advent of its olympic rules.

There will be some holes in their game, just like boxers, but the rules involve very real contanct, not love taps.

That's the difference we're talking about.

Grappling has an edge over striking in this regard in that full speed sparring doesn't mean that I am trying to knock my opponent senseless.

[JWTAYLOR]

I have an easy answer to this.

There are MANY schools in Austin teaching BJJ. But there is only ONE that I can find (actually just north of Austin) that has any formal BJJ training. That one is taught by a Machado Brown Belt. I have spoken with Carlos Machado and he vouches for the guy's credibility as he was a direct student. He knew of no other qualified BJJ teachers in Austin.

Yet there are allot of schools advertising it. How do they get away with it? Because there are no major BJJ tournaments anywhere around. And when there are smaller tournaments, the frauds certainly don't let their students know about them. Just becuase there is a Dallas or Houston tournament doesn't mean that people 200 miles away know anything about it.

There ARE BJJ McDojos right now.

JWT

If you pr!ck us, do we not bleed? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that the villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction. MOV

[KC Elbows]

Merryprankster,
I understand that that sort of valid competition is what you're talking about, but that does not change the fact that there are millions of TKD mcdojos. There will be bjj mcdojos, mcdojos for any popular MA. As long as there are low quality people there will be low quality MA. Anything else is just wishful thinking.

[old jong]

This tread feels like listening over and over to the same old Barry Manolow song!...You get the idea? :rolleyes:

Les paroles s'envolent.
Les écrits restent!...