Union with the Cosmic consciousness and MA

[Tainan Mantis]

This question was inspired by Prana.
He mentioned that someone who had spent 10 years trying a motley of different exercises had wasted his time.

So what do you do in your MA training to help in the pursuit of your spiritual beliefs?

[Scott R. Brown]

I'll answer in more detail about myself when I have more time.

However, it is important to remember that Buddha spent longer than 10 years studying a mish mash of belief systems and ended up devising a very profound and often misunderstood system of thought. Time is never wasted unless an individual refuses to learn from his/her expereinces. Since time is ultimately an illusion or if you prefer, in terms of eternity, there is little difference between 10 years and 100 years, the waste is in the attitude that the effort was a waste. Effort is never a waste. There are merely longer paths and shorter paths. In an ulltimate sense neither is better nor worse than the other. It is the lessons learned from our expereinces that gives them value, not how long it took to learn the lesson.

[No_Know]

"So what do you do in your MA training to help in the pursuit of your spiritual beliefs?"

Spiritual beliefs happen along with the things one does. Martial Art(s) training as with all eventsin ones life add to one's preceptions. These tailor one's spiritual beliefs, allow them to form, reform, develop. MA deals with responsibility of dealing with others relevant to Life and Death. You could get spiritual development from burning your tongue with coffee you didn't realize was so hot. This could happen here because you come to a realization. And the subconcious always relating might link that or something to do with that occurance to your understanding of (perception of) everything. MA is more directly related to things that test and relate to spiritual beliefs.

There isn't anything to do in MA training to help in spiritual beliefs besides train. You can try to find to find. Beliefs come with living. So live not Try to live.~ Development will occure.

[TjD]

perhaps he was referring to the fact that union with a supreme conciousness is not enlightenment; at least not in the bhuddas teaching of the word


peace
travis

[Cody]

I'd like to know how to get this thing to view a whole thread, not just the ending posts. Can someone help me with this?

Back on topic.
No_Know, I couldn't have said it better myself. You reminded me of a thing or two as well.

I do have misgivings, though about the sentence: "There isn't anything to do in MA training to help in spiritual beliefs besides train."
You are correct that beliefs come with living, with training (a specific kind of living), and that is doubly true if the mind is relatively independent. Yet, the foundation of some MA does have a belief system in the background. That might not make a difference in terms of the specific belief system you held to begin with, unless there is a conflict. There are some who feel that a belief system is part and parcel of the martial art.
The T'ai Chi symbol. People might choose to boil it down to body mechanics, but it is more than that, as you realize. It is one of duality of a complex nature.

While there is nothing inherently the matter with your statement, I think that there might be exceptions to it. It makes no difference whether the student chooses to avail themselves of the spiritual connections of a given martial art, or that of the teacher. By the very nature of the arts on a high level, the use of energy, there is a spiritual component, in my view, that might make one prone to having no beliefs except for the presence of energy which can be cultivated and plugged into (no one owns it), or to take on that on the belief system that fits it, or to continue in one's own as a separate matter. It is this last choice that gives most credence to what you have said in my view. It's not necessarily so, but it could be is how I see it.

As to the original questions.
I think it is possible to waste time by doing or considering things in a way by which nothing is gained and no progress is made. I know that not everyone will agree on what progress is. It is an individual thing really. However, cows chew their cud; humans don't. If, in all sincerity, one blindly works improperly (in a way that has no expected or unexpected benefits by virtue of its history and the current lack of results), time (finite life energy within one lifetime) has been wasted. The person might have been led to perform in that manner, or might be experimenting. However, past a certain point, I would call this a waste of time, and someone should stop the turntable.

In terms of spirituality. I would agree with No-Know that this comes with living, sometimes with the simplest of experiences. I also feel that experiences within the martial arts, in practice and being shown by the adept, can have a profound effect on one's spiritual nature. I had no deep beliefs to begin with. I am now an atheist, an iconoclast, knowing that I know nothing and realizing that no one is in control of these energies; some just have more access to them. This, along with another study I am involved in has fostered the beginnings of compassion and empathy which I had not thought possible in my heart. MA has greatly increased the amount of responsibility I take for who I am, which was substantial to begin with. In martial arts we learn that the human mind can be strong, but the mind and spirit are forces to be reckoned with on a completely different plane. This may or may not affect the beliefs one had or will adopt, but it will or should change one's relationship to mind and spirit in self and others, and possibly to beliefs in general.

Cody

[TjD]

you said:

"I am now an atheist, an iconoclast, knowing that I know nothing and realizing that no one is in control of these energies; some just have more access to them"

so would you say its impossible to know anything?

or if it is possible, are you taking any steps to figure "something" out?

(i mean this in 100% total respect - anything that helps anyone become a better person is a good thing in my eyes. i'm just simply curious about this belief (or lack thereof) )

peace
travis

[Scott R. Brown]

I am afraid I have to disagree with much of what has been written so far.

Spiritual beliefs happen along with the things one does.

Spiritual beliefs do not just happen. They are taught, learned and accepted. Spiritual beliefs are frequently verified through one’s experiences, but they do not just happen because one performs certain actions. It is possible to gain spiritual insight through reflection on events that are occurring or have occurred. What one gains is not because of the event per se, but because of what the individual brings to the event, how they choose to view or interpret the event.

Martial Art(s) training as with all events in ones life add to one's perceptions. These tailor one's spiritual beliefs, allow them to form, reform, develop.

There is a possibility that M.A. training can teach one to perceive life from a different perspective. Indeed any experience can change one’s perspective. But again it is not the experience; it is what the individual brings to the experience that changes the perspective.

MA is more directly related to things that test and relate to spiritual beliefs.

No more and no less than any other event, activity or phenomena.

There isn't anything to do in MA training to help in spiritual beliefs besides train. You can try to find to find. Beliefs come with living. So live not Try to live.~ Development will occur.

This is absolutely inaccurate. Intense training can provide insights; however, the individual must have a spiritual foundation that motivates him to seek for the profound in mundane activities. He must be applying his spiritual knowledge and experiences to his training and search for the lessons in his training. Once again, insights don’t just occur on their own and of themselves, the individual must bring what is inside himself to his training and use training to explore himself.

Beliefs do not come with living. They do not fly into ones mind from without. They are taught and learned, accepted and rejected. Spiritual growth is dependent on effort by the individual. No amount of growth will occur if effort is not applied. The search for answers to life’s questions is what motivates spiritual growth. Without the desire to know we would not be motivated to search. Spiritual growth is gained through the acquisition of knowledge, introspection, application of knowledge and evaluation of the effects of the applied knowledge. Knowledge that is provided and accepted from another is not spiritual growth, it is blind following. Spiritual knowledge becomes yours when it is tested and proven in your own mind.

Development does not just occur. It comes from focused intention upon the desired result. Just living life does not provide anyone with spiritual development. If it did we would live in a spiritually focused world, which we clearly do not.

The T'ai Chi symbol. People might choose to boil it down to body mechanics, but it is more than that, as you realize. It is one of duality of a complex nature.

Here I am not nit-picking, just clarifying. The Tai Chi symbol is the Yin-Yang which predates Tai Chi by thousands of years. It is not a symbol signifying duality. It signifies a complex concept the basis of which is the mutually dependent and inherent oneness of apparent duality. Duality is an illusion. It is apparent from a specific perspective, but it is not the absolute. The inherent oneness of duality is one of the focuses of the Yin-Yang.

There are two main roots of spirituality in the M. A. One is the Buddhist/Taoist perspective which originated as exercises designed to harmonize the body and the spirit. The exercises developed into systems of self-defense through the course of time. These forms of M.A. started with a spiritual component and developed a martial component. Spiritual goals were the foundation of these styles.

The second root of spirituality of the M.A. originated from the warrior perspective. The purpose of a warrior is to destroy the enemy and if possible survive the battle/war intact. To accomplish this task the warrior class investigated means of enhancing tactical advantage. One can only train so much. Look at the difference in Olympic calibre athletics. The difference between winning and losing is frequently measured in 1/100’s of a second. The question became, “What can one do that goes beyond physical prowess to enhance ones tactical advantage?� The answer was in the mind. The warrior class began to introspect into the mind to discover what advantages could be gained. With introspection and metal development spiritual qualities became apparent and it was discovered that an advance spiritual perspective would enhance ones fighting ability and increase ones chances of survival. The warrior perspective sought to gain a tactical advantage and this led to spiritual involvement.

To the question, “So what do you do in your MA training to help in the pursuit of your spiritual beliefs?�

I would have to answer; it is more what I do with my spiritual training to help with my M.A. I had a strong spiritual component to my life long before I began M.A. training. Since M.A. is largely physical in the early stages of training, spiritual training is not that important to the process of learning defense. As one progresses, the spiritual aspect tends to take precedence over the physical. Of course this is a generalized comment. I knew one woman who began training in Aikido because she thought it was a religion and I have known individuals who added no spiritual component to their training. If one learns the spiritual component in accordance with the physical component as in some Tai Chi schools that is good, but it is actually quite rare in modern M.A. Extra-curricular study is frequently necessary. I meditate and study Zen and Taoism to assist me in my M.A., but as I stated previously I engaged in this type of practice prior to my M.A. training. The M.A. training that assists my spiritual training is the mental focus that I bring to my training. There are certain types of knowledge that can only be gained through years of focused training and performing actions 1000’s of times. The mental focus developed to perceive these finer details of knowledge can be applied to spiritual training as well.

[Scott R. Brown]

Cody,

I would be interested in learning your definitions of atheist and iconoclast. I am not convinced you understand these terms.

[Nexus]

I started off feeling content before reading your post Scott and by the end of it I was hungry.

You don't need to understand black and white to see yin and yang. Is your reflection in the mirror yin or yang? Is a reflection of your reflection yin or yang? Your reflection "is", are you like your reflection or are you void and nothing? What is the reflection of void? Is the simple reflected as the complex? Does the answer to any of these questions reflect the question asked?

- Nexus

[Scott R. Brown]

What? LOL

[mantis108]

IMHO, there is no simple answer to the question. The only thing that I can do to help myself is to practice. Having said that I would also like to share with you a story about Sun Luk Tong alledgely wrote the word practice in his palm as his final instruction (or rather his summary of his life's work.) Personally, I couldn't have agreed more one year or more since I read that story. The word practice didn't seem much a year ago (or years ago when I first heard my Sifu said the word) but now that I have further understanding of the meaning of the word, it makes literaly a world of difference for me.

Martial arts in most people's view are practiced for all sorts of reasons and/or for some sort of attainment. Nothing wrong with that because it helps regardless. But when the practice becomes a selfless act which is consistent in every sense to the teachings of Hinduism, Buddhism and/or Taoism, this practice transcend its original form. Furthermore, it acquires a "prayer" like quality that is beyond common understanding. Praying (the practice of Kung Fu)with selflessness that's true practice. That's what I do to help myself.

Namasté

Mantis108

[Scott R. Brown]

Your reflection is Yin, the reflection of your reflection is Yin to the Yang of the first reflection.

[Scott R. Brown]

good one Mantis, I like it

[mantis108]

Glad you like it, Scott. Thanks Yours is impressive as always.

Mantis108

[Nexus]

"Don't become entangled and identified with the ten thousand things. You are not a thing like your reflection in the mirror. You are not an image. You are the original."