for 18 old men

[flem]

I learned fighting applications from master chan, maybe he simply held you back. He seems very wise, perhaps he saw you as a future "talk-fu" expert and chose not to take the time. Oh, and I am no longer in the system in case you believe I am just another brain-washed croney.

[Pong Lai]

"I learned fighting applications from master chan, maybe he simply held you back. He seems very wise, perhaps he saw you as a future "talk-fu" expert and chose not to take the time. "

18 Elders, the above seems to be an invite / challenge, ooh.
Let me know where and when the match will be. I think this is the only way these related threads will be resolved.

Flem;
You should return to the style! You would be the sole inheritor of the style. It is pretty easy to come to the conclusion from the skits the elders (Mimi ans company)in the style produce, that they have no clue what fighting is about. Sorry, Fighting is more than putting on pads and waving your arms and legs.

WL:
Wake up and smell thr roses, do your own research, learn Chinese, (your learn much more about what your studying) and perhaps consider another forum that pertains to your style, Southern Kung Fu. The WL practitioner will then start to understand the forum contents. Obviously you are unable to particpate in the Northern Praying Mantis Section because you have NOTHING within your style that relates beasides a Name!

All responses are more than welcome.

[woliveri]

Geezz flem, you must'a been waving lots of greenbacks his way. Got deep pockets?

[18elders]

Well flem, you must have been the chosen one, but i guess his wisdom failed him because the chosen one is no longer in the system.
It is no surprise to me because you probably forget the stuff anyways, i mean you can't even read, my user name is 18elders. I guess you are just demonstrating your IQ.
Did he show you the 2 person sets to any of these:
forms 1-6
lok low 1-4
little mantis, big mantis
18 elbows
plum flower
saylok
little fan cha, big fan cha
little open gate
how about any of the exercises?
Must i go on?

What's the application to elbow to toe?

[Olethros]

"What's the application of elbow to toe?"
Um, How about having really stretchy legs?



For those that did study WL, and are addressing these questions, why did you leave?
Why did you take up the style you are in now? Are you continuing your training?

[SaMantis]

Maybe they'll spend so much time arguing over ways to insult Wah Lum that they'll forget to go back into their caves before the sun comes up.

I await the next half-assed, ill-informed anti-WL comment. If only for my own entertainment.

Sincerely,

Brainwashed Croney

[18elders]

Thanks for proving my point.
There is application for it beside just a stretch, there are also mantis hand moves to it but you didn't learn that.

[NorthernMantis]

What the?? Hey Pong Lai when was 7 kicks a southern form or 2nd form or straight form??

We can fight.Would you like to come and try it?

18 old men

Who says every form has to have 2 man forms in order for it to be an authentic style?

Why in the world does everyone have to attack wah lum when the chance comes up?Were you that traumatized that you couldn't get over it?It's in the past leave it be.

If you want to fight then go ahead ,if not then shut up and leave it be.I'm getting sick of this.What would Lee Kwan Shan think?

Why did I take the style?I didn't want to take karate and it was the first school that I came in contact with.

Are you continuing your training?4 1/2 years and still going at it!

[SaMantis]

18elders,

I think this was said before in this forum, although it was several months ago:

Some people come to Wah Lum (and other styles) expecting to learn martial arts in a certain way -- usually in a way that they imagined or that they saw on TV or in movies. They're disappointed when they find out that real life doesn't measure up to their preconceived expectations.

This also can happen with people who came to WL from other styles (I don't know if you had previous MA experience before studying at WL), and don't like the way classes are taught, or the speed at which they're learning, and so on.

Then again, there are people who come to Wah Lum with expectations (I'm sure many people out there saw Karate Kid or Kickboxer and ran to the nearest MA school, expecting Mr. Miyagi to be waiting at the door). They lose those preconceived notions, but they stay, for any number of personal reasons.

Students come and students go. If they stay, they learn. If they decide to go, no one has any ill will against them. That was their decision. Some go into other systems and find their footing there, and I think that's great. Good on them.

18elders, you obviously didn't find what you wanted at Wah Lum. There's nothing wrong with that. But with the amount of experience you list in your profile, you should be way above coming in here and bashing another school, no matter what happened.

In another vein -- what led you to study the different styles you now take? Application? Number of two-man forms? The sifu? The friendships you have formed in class? This isn't a bash -- I want to know what drives you to study kung fu and why you chose each system (including Wah Lum) when you did. People stay in martial arts because some aspect of it feeds their souls -- lord knows if it didn't, I wouldn't have lasted beyond the first 3 months.

Now everybody stop this bashing, it's pointless. Slamming WL won't improve your kung fu.

Sam

[18elders]

In reply to some of your questions:
I started WM to learn praying mantis kung fu. After training in it for a while and going over to China i noticed a big difference in what other mantis styles were like compared to WM. I'm sure others in WM will agree that everyone likes what Master Jang taught them in China. I also went to Taiwan and that is were my eyes really opened. My kung fu brother from Wm sought out more mantis knowledge and moved to Taiwan to train with a famous Mantis Master. He lived there for 10 years but would come back to the States frequently and we would train. Me and my other WM kung fu brothers always wondered why it was so different, everything is 2 person drills, 2 person forms, application,application,application.
The movement is different, my teacher always says tai chi yao and tonglong shou.
There isn't that movement in WM.
So i started to research more mantis and wah lum mantis.
Even mantis catches the cicada, in WM only half of the technique is performed.
One of the most basic moves in mantis(although important) is gou lou tsai, where is it in wah lum forms?
There are ground fighting forms in mantis, take downs, kicking forms.
One of the characteristics of mantis is the many 2 person forms. I wondered why isn't it in WM?
All the basic exercises are 2 person, warm up exercises applications to them. Your kung fu training will improve alot if everything you do is 2 person. Not just solo forms and a self defense move here and there.
You guys say spoon fed, that's bull****. You won't understand a technique until you are doing it full blast in a 2 person situation with the other guy really trying to hit you. Why you block a certain way and why your waist movement is important. The single form is not the technique exactly, you can't dream up the techniques as they tell you to do in WM.
When Master Shr comes here he will do a seminar. If you really want to know what i'm talking about you should come and see, It is only a 2 hour drive from the temple.
So that is why i started to question wm. I liked it when i was in it but then i saw what mantis is really like, then i felt disappointed.
Sure i learned some nice forms but that's it.
I don't think i'm bashing it, just trying to learn about its history since there are so many different stories.
If i wanted to bash it i could say alot more that i have learned through the years but i don't.

[SaMantis]

18 elders,

There's no question that there are some great teachers over in Taiwan (I have a friend studying tai chi there now). I'm glad you found a style that you liked and that answered the questions you had.

Asking questions about Wah Lum history is fine. It's just that you are couching some negative opinions within your questions which makes the Wah Lum people on this board suspect your motives. So far, no one has been able to answer a question without your questioning its validity. That's fine; the problem is people like me who have little experience are afraid to explain what we know for fear of being labeled "stupid." Seems like many people on the board can't wait to poke fun at WL students.

The stories about Chan Wan Ching and the Big Fight between Lee Kwan Shan and the Yang guy seem to change every time someone tells them here. The best way to confirm this kind of info is for people to list their source material; where exactly they heard their version of the story. That way others can learn more and (hopefully) a definitive history will emerge, one way or another.

(Sorry to digress. I just remembered doing a research paper in college on the patriarch of a Southern family -- a friend's grandfather. My friend's stories about his grandfather were entertaining, but did not match the official records and other family stories I gathered about him. Everyone had a different version of the same stories -- and he was born just 2 generations ago! In a way, it applies to the LKS/Chan Wan Ching stories.)

As far as asking about applications behind the moves, ask away. I'll try and answer to the best of my limited ability (NorthernMantis and other WL'ers probably know more). I only ask that we discuss it in the spirit of KF practitioners trading knowledge. Right now, many of your questions seem like a challenge; that may not be your intention but it is my perception. I DO know applications; explaining them in 10 words or less is where I stumble. If you don't want to trade info on the board, feel free to e-mail me.


Sam

[flem]

my intention in addressing this forum was to add credance to master chan (croney) was used because 18elders seems to be under the impression that one needs to be a sucker to practice wah lum. i did not learn the two-person sets, nor did i claim any titles like"chosen". i simply said that master chan taught me fighting applications.(at no cost)
18elders
you are full of it to turn around and try to play the innocent historian- as your past threads have done nothing but throw backstabs at both wah lum and master chan, for certainly if someone with your experience would know the answers to your questions it would be you. i choose to ignore your insults/challenge as only an idiot would do so without knowing who they are challenging.

[18elders]

you choose to ignore my insults:

I believe you started them. You changed my user name to 18 old men, and then called me a talk-fu expert.
I didn't change your name to mucus.
Now you call me an idiot, i don't remember me posting a challenge to you, go over the posts again.
Yes i question the mantis in wahlum and why applications and 2 person drills are not taught, maybe people in wm with more years of training should also wonder.
I know many sifus in the system that do wonder and wish it would be taught, my questions is why isn't it.
If you are happy just learning forms that is great, but if you are learning and one day you wish to open your own school you should know how to use your kung fu.
What do you tell your students when they ask you how to apply the techniques? I don't know, i was never shown. But aren't you a sifu, how can you not know?
Your math teacher should be able to show you how to solve an a equation shouldn't they?
I agree with Sa mantis, there are too many versions of the history, that's why i question things.
The handbook says LKS was born in 1888 and died in 1948. That makes him 60. Mimi's article says he fought into his 80's, the handbook says he was only 60, i have read others that say he was 76?

[flem]

i apologize. i read a thread by pong lai as yours- the challenge part- as far as IQ is concerned maybe you should check the spelling of flem---phlegm- mucus??

[18elders]

it isn't about the spelling, i know the correct way to spell it, it was the disrespect you intended.
Wasn't too much else to say about the name.
Why did you leave the system?
What do you train in now?