for 18 old men

[18elders]

i wouldn't think it is chop suey, they are all mantis systems and he knows the complete systems.
to me chop suey would be a lttle hung gar, a little choy lay fut, a litte wing chung, a little eagle claw, tiger claw ,shaolin etc.

If Sa mantis wants to patt me on the back let her, my back is a bit sore, it may help!!



as to the challenge:
i thought northern mantis said we can fight, come down and see?

Anyway why would it have to go through the temple?

[isol8d]

Fighting on the internet is like sport tae kwon do. No matter how hard you try, you still look stupid.

May your best day in 2001 be your worst of 2002.

[NorthernMantis]

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Ok, Pong Lai read flem's comment about learning fighting techiques from Master Chan as a challenge. NorthernMantis let his hot Colombian blood get the best of him and said come on over and fight. Hey, I was just as hotheaded when I was his age. He has since retracted his personal invitation to fight in favor of my statement that the Wah Lum Temple will handle any challenges to the system. Don't say we can't fight unless you're prepared to come down and find out. My previous posts were personal opinions. Now I speak for Wah Lum and the Temple. You say Wah Lum stinks then tell it to Master Chan and the Wah Lum Sifu's personally.

isol8d
I love that quote about fighting on the Internet! Take it from a poster from the old BBS days it's real easy to get caught up in that kind of stuff. For some reason all manners and social ettiquette go out the windows when people get online.

[NorthernMantis]

Correct me if I'm wrong but did Northern Mantis propose a challenge to Pong Lai? A challenge to fight?

Nope I didn't, he stated that challenge not me.Wolivery said he would pay for the trip and I said good send him to Orlando not Miami. Like Hua Lin said all challenges will be held and taken care of by the hq.Let him take it there cause I know there are people there who can fight.

NORTHERN MANTIS

I HOPE YOU didn't challenge Pong Lai, and if you did I recommend you take it back. I believe that you may be in over your head with this one.

Dude, I know better than that He's been in kung fu probably when I was playing with my ninja turtles.I've only been in kung fu in general for 4 1/2 years.Even if I would have gone against him I'm not afraid of losing like some people. I met a wing chun sifu a while back that put my skills to shame but that didn't stop me in fact it made me practice more and the same sifu gave me advice,no harm done.

I'm just a 19 124lbs beginer.If if there would be a challenge it would be in the future not now. I'm not ready. There I said it I admit that he's better than me but I don't let my ego get in the way.

If the fight takes place... I got $100 on Pong Lai

I got $100 on pong Lai too I"m not backing out though, I just know when I'm outclassed and that my friends is another part of kung fu being smart and avoid the situation. It's not an ego thing for me.

BTW, that's Joe Mantis who's got money on Pong Lai.
If it actually came to a challenge, I'd stand with Northern Mantis, win or lose.

Sam

Thanks for standing by me bro.

as to the challenge:
i thought northern mantis said we can fight, come down and see?

Anyway why would it have to go through the temple?

I meant that he take it there and fight them not me.

Get it straight people it's not a challenge between Pong Lai and me.I know he is better than me.I meant that if he wants to fight then take it there and take on someone who I know who is capable of applying techniques.He said we can't fight so I told him to come down and see it for himslef.Noticed the word we not I.

SaMantis-

I think Pong Lai was the first to invite NM to a challenge ... I need to follow the thread back to confirm it one way or the other. In any case the challenge would have to go through the temple in Orlando..

flem-

samantis

do you know northern mantis? what makes you think he needs to worry? by the way pong lai gave the invite- atleast thats my impression

I believe it says it all.

One more thing a little something for all of you who think I was challenging Pong Lai

I am not afraid of getting beaten nor am I afraid of pain.
I love sparring people who are bigger and better than me.I learn by losing.If I were to go against Pong Lai win or lose I'll still win either way.

I'm not afraid of Pong Lai and I certainly don't care how good he is or what style he is taking.I'm not afraid to admit that he is better than me granted that he has been studying kung fu for a longer period of time nad has more experience.Like I said before this isn't an ego trip for me.

I've seen personally what works and what doesn't on the street and that's why I chose wah lum.While living in Colombia I've seen things and been in situations that most of you will not probably see in your lives and not want to be.

Yes Pong Lai you are better than me, but no we can fight.Why don't go and try out my si hings if you'd like.By the way I wonder if his sifu knows about how he is acting.Maybe in the future I might take up on afriendly challenge.Notice I said friendly.

[NorthernMantis]

Hua lin pretty much summed it up in a shorter post.

lol at the Colombian statement.Happy New years everyone.

[woliveri]

NorthernMantis:

Wolivery said he would pay for the trip and I said good send him to Orlando not Miami.

Please check the posts, I said no such thing.

Also, it's Woliveri not Wolivery.

Thanks

[NorthernMantis]

Originally posted by 18elders
What does Shelly's husband think about it?
There are northern forms and southern forms,
leopard is southern, little and big buddha palm southern,18 elbows southern, 36 hands, master stick, lo gar spear, tiger fork , butterfly knives.
As far as your friend saying it doesn't look like choy lay fut, that is interesting because Master Chan told a sifu that it is influenced by CLF.
Anyone know any northern styles that have woo dip ma stance in it?

If you don't have the money for the ticket, i will pay for it for you.



Well said woliveri

I stand corrected it was 18elders who said he will pay.My apologies woliveri

[flem]

18elders


as someone said earlier' all praying mantis can be considered chop suey as they were developed using various shaolin methods with the addition of the insects movements - to me though, a non-chop suey method or style sets itself apart by it's cohesiveness. that is all of the various methods in it work together. the easiest way to understand what i mean is the way many WL forms/techniques overlap- occassionally causing the practioner to go into another form, since the goal of any martial art is to make the practioner respond automatically- obviuoslly WL is a complete system. but not only that, have you ever noticed the preceding/follow up techniques to moves that are repeated in the system? they allow many responses to "possible" counters- i emphasize possible because of your concern over 2 person sets (their absence in WL) to me 2 person sets condition the practioner to deal with a set response from your opponent. an example of the variation of technique in WL that i spoke of earlier is the jump- crescent kick. in first form the follow technique is the kum choy punch- because a possible counter to your jump is for the opponent to move in and under the kick- in say lok the opponent moves away- in several forms they are in hand range and so the hand is swept up as you step in and punch- in the beginning of second form the opponent is taken down by grabbing their head- anyway you get the point
in any case this applies throughout the system AND it carries over to the weapons as well, so to me i don't give a rats ass whether lle kwan shan visited master chan in his dreams or if he copied them from video games the fact is the kung fu is awesome- and believe me i am the LAST one who should be saying so!

[woliveri]

flem, your initials wouldn't be tf would they?

[flem]

woliveri

nope- he screwed himself-
in my case it was different

[Pong Lai]

CHOP SUEY?

I do not agree with either definitions of Chop Suey. Another way to define an explanation could be, a form and/or application which does not contain “Chuan Li”. Chuan meaning “fists” and “li” meaning theory. Some call it “methodology” of the applications / techniques. Chop Suey, basically are movements placed together (be it forms or applications) whereas the attacks, defends, and counters do not calculate and or plagued by multiple loopholes. You more often find this when persons attempt to piece together an exhibition form without knowing the applications of the individual techniques and how one must counter and flow into the other.


General Comments:
Just about every thread on this forum is in the form of a question. Some about techniques, training methods, and many about lineage and history of a particular individual or style.

You may perceive the questions raised, as ones need for clarification, better understanding, curiosity, bashing, etc. If you are completely confident in your MA and in your present learning state, you will respond with knowledge, loyalty, persistence, an open mind, and stick by what you say, as most participants have. You will find that those whom have conducted and continue to research all aspects of MA, tend to pose curious questions of MA history and technique. Those whom have done little or no research, tend to only possess the tools of defending by attacking. Not so wise if you do not first conduct some thorough research. Most of these individuals only form of research have been “here say”. Perhaps just by one source??

For instance: The Thread on “Questions for Wah Lum People” posted by 18 Elders.
It seems that many whom participated understood and replied to 18 Elders need to filter through his own found discrepancies and seek documented answers researched by others. Apparently they were questions that he was not able to have answered through the provided literature or instructors he came in to contact with while studying with WL. Fine. I certainly do not have the answers. Only when those individuals had no knowledge to contribute or felt threatened did they result to methods, unable to otherwise back (whitewhirlwhind pg. 4), and insinuating that 18 Elders was only attempting to mis-credit, Wah Lum’s Master Chan. Interesting that this individual has failed to further participate in any other Thread(s) regarding intelligent questions of techniques or history.


It also seems that a few participants are hoping and seeking to find “David Carridine” answers on MA. The “Grasshoper” mentality / approach of how MA schools are conducted in China (history) are quite exaggerated. Keep an open mind.There are quite a few participants (Chinese and Western) here that could provide you insight that is more than a 3 week China trip or summer camp. Did you know that there are just as many MA frauds (Means they state they know something they don’t or are a disciple of someone they are not), in Asia as in the West, maybe more. I am making a general statement here. Again “Why Hang Xen Kan Reh Now, Nay Hang Xen Kan Mun Dow!”

I too trained with the Wah Lum system under one of its highly regarded practitioners and Instructors of the time. I till this day have credited Wah Lum for introducing the world of MA to me, inspiring, and through my Instructor, teaching me what hard work, dedication, and basics were all about. I was with Wah Lum for four years before traveling to Taiwan to study with my Kung Fu brother, Tainan Mantis under Shr Zheng Zhong.
ShrGung Chan has visited my home in Taiwan, treated him and his students to tea and dinner. I also originally traveled with ShrGung to China as many of you, and many more times on my own.
.
My teacher SHr Zheng Zhong’s MA skill is highly regarded & respected in Asia, not just Taiwan. Shr SHrfu is not liked personally by some. Why? Shr Shrfu is more outspoken than I may ever be. This is not arrogance, but sheer confidence in one’s own ability and MA knowledge. Often disliked by those whom feel threatened and intimidated. Shr Shrfu does not hesitate to expose fraud in Instructors, whom claim what they truly are not. Allowing so only will further demise Chinese Martial Arts reputation!
It would seem to me that a genuine MA would want to become best of friends with another of similar or greater ability. I do. I know my teacher till this day still will seek out any practitioner whom he has heard has good kung fu in order to try to pick up something he has possibly missed or overlooked in the past. You may take a look at Shr Shrfu and many other well known teachers documented profiles on Mantis 108’s,TaiJiPrayingMantis’ web-site.

Shr Shrfu has never left Taiwan to live in a foreign country, thus leave his many teachers side. Rather has remained with them to learn all that was possible right down to many of their death beds!

Would Shr Shrfu be ashamed of me? I am more than certain he has placed his bet on me.

[Olethros]

to 18elders

"olethros
Thanks for proving my point.
There is application for it beside just a stretch, there are also mantis hand moves to it but you didn't learn that."

We were talking about elbow to toe.
I was making a joke, hence the



after the message. I'm sorry if my intention in that statement was misunderstood.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Pong Lai
“Why Hang Xen Kan Reh Now, Nay Hang Xen Kan Mun Dow!”
Wo bu dong. I think your pinyin might be off. I can almost get it. Wai hang shen kan reh(?) nao, Nai hang shen kan men dao! ???

Ta han yi shenme? What does it mean?

18Elders
I haven't taken the time to look for applications in the exercises, there's more than enough material in the forms. It would be interesting to hear some although I'd hate to be in an elbow-to-toe position in a fight. Are you talking about a low block like in Little Mantis (after the sweep elbow)?

[flem]

hua lin laoshi

i'm betting that the elbow to toe thing is a secret!

i was not sure which thread you were refering to about catching a jab or the hook i aked you guys to try, instead of answering both i'll wait