Internal development: What does it mean?

[Fu-Pow]

There are three main internal martial arts. They all claim that if you study them your movments will become internal. What does this mean exactly? Are they internal in the same way?

[miscjinx]

The 3 Sisters – Tai Chi, Hsing-I, and Pa Kua – are internal styles and they claim to teach internal mechanics and new way of generating power. You can do aikido internally also. It is not what art you do, but how you move. If you learn internal strength and mechanics, you can do karate internally. This moving internally is the same for all the arts. If you move improperly (externally specifically), eventhough you are studying tai chi (or other) – you are doing it externally and not doing it correctly.

What does moving internally mean exactly? It is easier to show than to say and this has already been covered before on this board.

[Braden]

Are they all the same? At this point, it seems to me - no. I get very different sorts of things from circlewalking as I do from standing practice. I get again different things from the single palm change, although they seem related to the circlewalking stuff. What I've gotten from my brief exposure to one of Feng Zhiqiang's Chen Taiji form was entirely different again. It doesn't seem to me that further exposure to the taiji stuff in isolation would yield what I got from the bagua, nor vice versa. But again, my experience is VERY limited.

[les paul]

No two internal styles are the same. Much of what seperates internal styles and external is in the way that Jing is issued.

Many internal styles are also different from each other.

So your question has many answers.

What makes up the term "internal development" I would think is in the way one issues Jing(force) and the tools one uses to develope this force.

One might also include the Nei Gong and martial applications....considering many styles share these techniques

Paul Calugaru

[Chris McKinley]

If you want internal movement, just eat some Ex-Lax (is it me, or is there something twisted about marketing a chocolate laxative?) and practice the Valsalva maneuver.

[count]

Tai chi is like a rubber ball, hsing-i is like an iron ball and bagua is like a ball of string inside.

[blacktaoist]

MIND AND BODY ARE ONE.


PEACE.

[Repulsive Monkey]

Some one mentioned that internal arts suggest that they have a new way of generating power? This is rubbish, there is nothing new about internal cultivation and the forces used from it, these are the same forces that are used in nature hence the clear Taoist resonance that the 3 Internal arts have to nature.

[miscjinx]

Braden:

“Are they all the same? At this point, it seems to me - no. I get very different sorts of things from circlewalking as I do from standing practice.”

Your loosing the forest for the trees. I said the internal arts are the same because they all teach basically the same generating internal strength. I am a tai chi guy. I meet with a bagua guy. We find we are both generating internal strength the same way, the principles are the same, etc. The exact application/movement and the practices to learn how to do this are different, but what we learn is the same.

Les paul:

“What makes up the term "internal development" I would think is in the way one issues Jing(force) and the tools one uses to develope this force.”

As I said above, I find little difference in how one generates the force, the difference is only in how it is applied and the technique to develop it. What is being done to generate the force is the same in all internal martial arts – and that is just from talking with and watching tai chi, bagua, and aikidoists.

Repulsive Monkey:

“Some one mentioned that internal arts suggest that they have a new way of generating power? This is rubbish”

It is a new way of generating power than how most people (americans at least) and external martial artist generate power. Externalists use a lot of local muscle (ie their arms), body have the full body connectivity and movement, use tension, etc, etc, etc. Internal arts teach an new way to move and generate power from the norm (that I see in the US). It is not new in the idea of NEW. The context was a new way to move than the normal way or external way, not a NEWly developed way to generate power.

[Kumkuat]

develop peng jing and its manipulations of it.

[Braden]

Miscjinx - Could very well be. I simply shared my experiences. Although when you train different, it feels different internally, and the overt applications are different, I think it seems a little odd to call it the same. Although I do agree with you that they share peng as a basis for what they do.

[Daniel Madar]

Sprinting, marathons and hurdles are all running events, but training for each one will give you very different results and abilities. I think that internal arts are the same.

[red_fists]

Hi.

Here is what my Sijo answered when he was asked the same question:

"We train Tai Chi to become like a Child again, and to make us younger."

He also said:
"We train Tai Chi so that in old Age we are healthy enough to be able to enjoy those aquired Skills."

At first I didn't quiet understand what he meant, until I started to observe my little Son and watch him develop and grow.

Babies are born with little muscles, but can still generate a lot of strength, at the same time they are also very flexible(without even trying, sniff), and often sensitive to things that we are not.

As we grow up and develop, due to lifestyles and outside influences we start to loose a lot of those abilites as we are trained to use major muscle groups, start getting used to certain postures, etc, etc.
Now I see training internal as a way of trying to get back those "skills/natural abilites" that we were born with but have discarded them in favor of our Lifestyle.
Hope this was not too far off-thread.

[les paul]

Les paul:

“What makes up the term "internal development" I would think is in the way one issues Jing(force) and the tools one uses to develope this force.”

As I said above, I find little difference in how one generates the force, the difference is only in how it is applied and the technique to develop it. What is being done to generate the force is the same in all internal martial arts – and that is just from talking with and watching tai chi, bagua, and aikidoists



re: Guess again...........!

[miscjinx]

Les Paul,

Really?
Sam Wiley replied to the post in 'Power Generation in Bagua' as follows:

(NOTE: I would describe tai chi the same, and aikido only with the variation of collapsing into spirals instead of exploding. True Yang taiji is a bit more linear, but the Chen roots are very spiral).

"The Waist is an axle, the hands are revolving wheels."

This is a classic saying in Bagua, and it means that the waist must guide all movement. For instance, while you are walking the circle, your waist must drive your legs in the stepping, and when you change directions, your waist must make your body move. When you practice the form, your waist must drive all the movement. If you move one hand only, your waist must make it move.

By learning to use your waist to lead movement, you enter into the area of whole body power. Soon, your whole body will be powering movement, with your waist driving everything along, like a catalyst. Basically, the waist sends the power out along the extremities. You can achieve great power this way.

On top of this, Bagua uses a lot of torquing movements, winding the body up in great tight spirals and releasing them. It's a bit like a bomb going off. Most of the movements in Bagua are done in spirals, but there are a few that are vertically powered....
---------------------

This description sounds right to me (but so too for other internal arts). If this doesn't sound right to you, perhaps you could share what you know instead of just saying 'guess again.'