Who Has Chi

[No_Know]

"The tai Chi form by itself will build no chi. It’s great as a conductor, but not as a builder. "

So, the ch'i is conducted to? when doing the t'ai chi ch'uan form.

"Take two people, train both of them in the same method using the slow form and push hands etc. except with one of them you employee tree methods. Do this for a year. And bring them up against each other in push hands, which do you, think would win? "

All things being equal~since push hands nullifies the winner would be the one who was sticking to forms and pushhands

[fiercest tiger]

hahaha i gave you an basic answer to a basic question?

you can get chi from good fresh food too!

i understand what you mean, what is combat chi?

what about people that are ordanary street fighters and havent trained combat chi, but still f@ck you up anyways? does a combat chi fighter fight dirtier or better than someone that doesnt have combat chi?

i really dont see your question!! sorry mate

ykm has internal work also, i wouldnt call it combat chi just hard training and conditioning with good skill!! i do believe in chi and feel the chi moving in the body and try and use it for healing people. combat chi is skill, has mike tyson trained long enough in chi kung to become world champ?

[blacktaoist]

Maoshan thread was about, who has Chi. Not about what is Chi?(Theories and principles or general concepts of chi) But like always people reply with post that is not what the thread is about.

Maybe Maoshan should have said who can utilize they chi in a fight. Maybe a few people then can comprehen better.

No_Know you write:
All things being equal~since push hands nullifies the winner would be the one who was sticking to forms and pushhands

In the old days Tai Chi practitiners practice body conditioning training to survie in a fight. Just practicing forms and pushhands will not manifest powerful Techniques to stop a Professional Martial art fighter or even a good street fighter.

The Traditional Chinese Kung fu masters have a saying, If you just train forms and drills and not Gong, then when you get old , all your practice will be in vain."

In my opinion to your above statement, The winner will be the Tai Chi guy who practice conditioning training. In the real World of combat, strength and endurance are necessary for effective techniques. Without body conditioning a peron will not be able to last in a fight, and if they get hit by a skill fighter thats been Condititioning training. They be good as dead."

I don't care how much Chi intent skill or daydreaming mind intent, or projecting so-called Chi energy out in push hands or in a real fight, if the person don't train in conditioning training, they will not survive in the real World of combat.

People need to stop Chi dreaming and get to some real hardcore traditional Kung fu training.

Peace.

[fiercest tiger]

This is what im saying! Do jujutsu or shoot fighter train chi kung? so why are they kicking most kung fu guys butts?

hard training and sparring or fullcontact fighting gives you the edge...reality fighting or sparring using edge weapons and sticks, bats, chains and bottles are gonna give you the killer instinct to live when it gets ugly.

[blacktaoist]

Thanks Fiercest tiger. Also I like your post.


Here is some thing for You Tai Chi Chi fighters go to:http://members.tripod.com/%7Ecrane69/index6d.htm

This guy have a article with pictures of Tai Chi Expersts getting beatdown" by Professional Muay Thai fighters.

My Question to you Tai Chi guys is? Where was these Tai Chi Expersts pushhand skills or chi power LOL."

Where was the Neutralizing skills or they explosive energy that Tai Chi is said to have to end a fight?

Bottom line if you are not training real Kung fu, you end up just like them Tai Chi Expersts, if you ever met a real Martial artists that trains old school. (Body Conditioning and Impact Training.)

Peace

[wisdom mind]

was that most people did not overstand the original question

aside from that....

i agree with you sifu, even a practitioner of many years with experience in competition will find that their world is all fizzuckeeed if they fight full contact with no rules and they have not done tree or partner conditioning

if you are not prepared for the shock of getting struck then you are in for a reality check your books and sifu cant help you when the time comes to put up or shut up

every martial artist needs a good whuppin now and then to keep them "grounded"

burn the batti mon

i cant wait for the full contact seminar ive been hooking up the brooklyn trees so lovely LOL

Black - I need to talk with you this weekend if you have time, email me what is a good time to call - no big deal just wan fi touch base.

[count]

Excuuuuse me, if you didn't like my post. But the question stated was,

How many of you have Chi to use your art?
and how long did it take for you to get there?

I think I answered that in the first paragraph. I merely used references from 2 pretty good sources for the benefit and enjoyment of others who cared to read it and to see where maoshan was going with his questions.

Maoshan, You later stated...

This is the one to debate.

My opinion is:
The tai Chi form by itself will build no chi. It’s great as a conductor, but not as a builder. Thus you have the auxiliary exercises, in particular the Qi-Gong. And at best what you get with this practice is good health. Combat requires Physical conditioning. The muscles must be worked. Without that you’ll get dropped like anyone else in a situation.

First, I already testified to the benefits of chi kung in helping my personal development but I don't think it is anything more than a supplement. Most chi kung postures are within the forms anyway so I don't think it is a necessary and the tai chi form does open the channels for proper circulation. But the second part of your opinion has more to do with conditioning and muscles. Is that to imply that chi kung exercises have more to do with conditioning and muscles than the forms? Or are we talking about another kind of training?

Can you learn to fight by practicing only forms? Maybe, I know I couldn't. Can you learn to use your chi in fight to protect an area or to help you recover faster? Yes, maybe would take some practical experience but it can be done! Can you shoot chi bullets from your hands and kill your opponent in a fight? HeII no! So what are we talking about when you say combat chi?

[Water Dragon]

Train hard, Train smart
Chi happens

[blacktaoist]

Count write:
Excuuuuse me, if you didn't like my post

If I didn't like your post ,you would know about it Because I would have Told You. Yes your Post had good general information on what chi is about. But your post had nothing to do with what Maoshan post was about In my opinion.

if people that post up here on this internal web page don't understand or know about general chi theory, then they ass should not be on this web page."

Maoshan write:How many of you have Chi to use your art?

Maoshen write this statement because a lot of you so called scholars of Chi Theory on Kungfuonline claim to be able to utilze this so called chi or fa-jing with out practicing any kind of conditioning or impact training.

I have met a few people on kungfuonline that before I met them, that post a lot of replys talking like they train will hard and they have true skills in the so called internal martial arts.

When I met them they had nothing, No fighting skills whatever." They had no conditioning and they fighting method of offensive and defensive was not practical. If they live in my hood they be good as dead." A street fighter would eat them up."

Bottom line, people can talk a good game, but when the time comes to met another Martial artist that is very skill in the old ways of training. When it is time to cross hands or freefight,pushhands or what ever game you play. If you are not train right and your style of combat is not practical." All the chi kung and Esoteric internal theory will not help your ass when you met a real train martial art fighter.

And thats way them Tai Chi experts got they ass kick by them Muay Thai fighters." Not because The style of Tai Chi is bad, but because they was not condition for real combat. The Muay Thai fighters were condition for real combat and this they mind manifest a killer mindset. They didn't play the pushhands game or play Tai Chi form and talk theory all day to beat they Tai Chi opponents.

They just train hard utilizing the proper methods of fighting." Something a lot of so-called internal martial artist need to do."

Peace.


Yi Wu Give me a call at my House. I'm home right now.

[wisdom mind]

i will touch base with you during the week-end

ill be in the studio from midnight till wednesday morning.

its cold out there! time to up the jing levels lol

peace

[count]

I do hear what you are saying and I was just kidding around anyway. But I will say this. The fight you mentioned (twice) happened more than 44 years ago (the year I was born, actually). Find out who went to Bangkok to fight and win the Muay Thai Championships in heavyweight, light heavyweight and cruiser weight division for the last 6 consecutive years. I will say this, he used Baji not tai chi, but his teacher has one of the best books on tai chi you will ever find. Pick up The Invisible Web by Dr. Su Yu Chang. (If you are of a mind to read some theory)

[bamboo_ leaf]

“ Have a question for all of you who practice Anyone of the Internal Styles.
In particular Tai Chi. In the last thread I posted, toward the end,
Someone said some thing that really made me think.
How many of you have Chi to use your art? “

I do.

”and how long did it take for you to get there? “

Over 10 I would say but I didn’t really understand things until over 25+ yrs of training. Understanding as in just getting the basic idea of working with it.


”Understand, In Tai chi In particular all I have ever heard in terms of training is the slow form and Push hands, and Chi Gong. Which means you must depend on Chi to fight.”

In correct, hard to explain.

First I have had training in:

Lama hop gar.
Plum flower mantis
7* mantis

So I know and understand what many of talk about conditioning training. I have also tested what i worked with to my satistfaction

In my experience to really meet the requirements o f TC is very, very hard.
because it is really hard, not many people get to the point where it really becomes functional. IMHO most people are far below the level that they think they are. even in the basic things like sung.
it takes awhile, but once you find it you will know.

the hard i talk of is the hardness of letting go.

You do not depend on CHI to fight, it’s a byproduct of correct training. All this impact condition that BT talks about is irrelevant. You don’t need it.

I have used my TC in sparring matches and also the attributes developed using TC in playing with my mantis. Now I only play the TC. Cheng Man Chings style to be specific. It has all that I need at this point.

Shen, YI, CHI, for me these are the cornerstones of my training and understanding.

The TC people that I have met in SF are very real with their art. They will and can hurt you if they want to.
To think otherwise is a mistake.


haveing said this, it's always the person and their understanding of their art that makes it real.

[PlasticSquirrel]

i'll try to answer the question. to answer it properly in how i understand things best and how i have observed things in my training, i need to divide each of the applications of qi in fighting into two categories (usually they are both deemed jin, but i need more of a division to explain each). i'm just making up these terms on the fly, but here goes: internal qi effects and external qi effects.

internal qi effects: this is the jin as in the wuxing of xingyiquan and the bagua of taijiquan and baguazhang. it uses form (bones, ligaments, tendons, and muscles - especially tendons) and intention to move qi inside the body. really, all movements have qi in them to be able to execute the movements, obviously. to have real substantial power, though, using the designated jins from your system should take anywhere from six months to a year under clear instruction.

external qi effects: stuff like explosive power and sensing power. it is natural progression from internal qi effects, and will happen after you have enough qi for you to be able to sense and control that can extend out of the body. it is simply different manifestations of interaction with your external surroundings, stemming from internal jin. this relies on a few things. they are how much qi you have, how well you can use it, and the conductivity of the paths it travels on (low resistance is achieved by frequent practice). i would say that this varies greatly, and is really something that you just kind of break through to. i would say one to two years after you achieve the internal qi effects.

i wouldn't expect much out of most people, though, because they are often so caught up in philosophy and have read so many books that they don't know qi when they feel it. they don't understand it, because earlier they have misinterpreted the things they have read, so they think that there are contradictions in their practice. often, people go on like this for quite awhile. topics like using muscles and tendons to transport qi are not understood, and often rejected because people don't understand them, as is the relationship and gradient of using the yi and using the form to move qi. because these topics are not reconciled, they have difficulty progressing. with these difficulties (not to mention poor instruction that is usually given), it is a wonder that people comprehend internal qi effects at it's foundational level in their lifetimes, rather than in a few short months like it should be.

[fiercest tiger]

Hi there!

quick question when you used chi in the sparring and your fights, what happened to your opponent?

could have you dont the same without combat chi?

its a serious question...

FT

[bamboo_ leaf]

PlasticSquirrel,

Nice post. I agree. Some basic misunderstandings that cannot be cleared in this medium.



fiercest tiger,

I would rate my understanding as very basic to those that I have experience with in TC.

So my wording and understanding my also be basic to some of the people here.

I don’t know what “combat chi “ is. I do know that when working awhile back with one of my mantis friends, I neutralized his attack and made both of his feet leave the ground as he tried to retreat. i caught his hand so he wouldn't hit the wall we where by.

I have had people that I knew try to do things to me and they end up falling down or getting thrown out by their force.. For me TC is a very different art from those that I have worked with and others that I have met.

This doesn’t mean that I can’t get dusted, (been there) or while playing push hands in the park I haven’t been pushed very hard out (also been there) it means that I have personally reached an understanding with an art that I feel I have come to know and have some small knowledge to share.

I have no intent of hurting anyone. Any attack is a sign of being unbalanced, If your unable to change and maintain your own balance then your TC will not work. If you can change and understand force then you can do what you want using their force.


As to not having this or not using it. Mmmm I don’t think I could not do it. It would be counter instinctive.

My old way was what ever I hit I would kill it / arm/leg/body/ head/ this is not my way now. I would say my way now really depends on what the other dose.

again its the person not the art / differnt arts open differnt doors
depends on what you want