Who Has Chi

[fiercest tiger]

ive never heard of combat chi until this thread ..lol

thanks for the answer!

[Esteban]

Hmmm,

I don't know if it's related, but

http://www.ozemail.com.au/~hchoy/ironcrotch.htm

but, you guys aren't talking about this, are you?


Esteban

[maoshan]

First,
Let’s get this straight there is no such thing as combat chi. it was a pun. I was referring to those that think that all they have to do is relax and let the Chi do the work. But before I get deep.

Beaudasious
What you wrote is the absolute truth.

Justa Man
In my experience, I’ve come across a lot of different Chi-Gongs for TC. The most popular ones are of the soft or Yin aspects that are employed in modern TC. Their Hard Chi-Gongs That I’ve read about and read only, that are not used anymore. Such as the stone ball for the arms, which is used on a concave table and one for the legs in which the ball is rolled around clockwise and counter.
There is also the fast form that Chen style retained to train the Fa-Jing. Yang Cheng Fu Took out that aspect in teaching the public in order to keep the secrets. The truth of this can be seen in the Yang Ban Hao style. Which is much more combat orientated than YCF’s style.
But understand this also; I’m positive that most of the teachers kept the deep training methods to themselves. The gape between then and now is too great.
Here’s a method for you. Let’s take the universal post posture.
In general when you start a TC class, you take this posture relatively high and told to relax. What would happen if you sunk deeper, Not quit MaBu but somewhat just above. It’s harder to do but the achievement will be greater at the end of the hundred days.
This method is for beginners in the martial arts.
If you’ve had some time in another style, the higher stance makes sense because you have to learn to relax.


No_Know
[So, the ch'i is conducted to? when doing the t'ai chi ch'uan form.]
What are you saying here?
As to the second part of what your saying:
The two people are equal in every thing as far as the training is concerned, except using the tree methods. The one, not having trained the tree method has to lose. With or without a good teacher the result would be the same. If both are training the sensitivity with the same intensity with the exception of the tree…
Come on you figure it out.

Fiercest Tiger
Again, it was a pun. And I agree with you on this point. Skill.
Which takes years of dedicated practice. Something that most that post on this forum lack. This is why TBT and myself take no shorts from any one. A few Non-believers and dreamers have come to but it to the test and left (or layed there), knowing that we’re not Internet warriors. We put the time in and are still putting the time in.
The internal is extremely hard to learn because of so many factors that have to be considered beyond the external aspects. It’s truly blood sweat and tears. I met too few that train that way. Get on the net and all of a sudden everyone trains this way. BU!!$H!T!

Count
Is that to imply that chi Kung exercises have more to do with conditioning and muscles than the forms? Or are we talking about another kind of training?

Both. As I said earlier, there are Wai Gongs and various methods of training aimed at the more external side of Internal training. My question is, is anyone training in them at all? With the dedication needed to succeed? And raise the level of the art here in the west.
The next few years will tell.

Bamboo_leaf
Yours is the response I respected most. But I disagree with you on one point. you say:

First I have had training in:

Lama hop gar.
Plum flower mantis
7* mantis

This gave you a perspective most don’t have. Your mindset was preset. Like I said I agree with you, the letting go aspect is the toughest thing to do.
But your confidence to let go came from your previous experience.

But look my point is ultimately.
It takes hard work over a substantial amount of time to be proficient in the internal.

Peace
Maoshan

[blacktaoist]

Bamboo Leaf write:this impact condition that BT talks about is irrelevant. You don’t need it.

Man I hear Tai Chi people like you make that misleading statement all the time. I don't care what style of Tai Chi you practice if you have no real conditioning and impact training there is no why in hell you last long in a fight with a real fighter.

$hit most Tai Chi guys can't even take a fist or palm strike to the body because they are not condition to take full-contact fighting.

Why?" because they are dream training with no real practical training established."

My opinions come from my own experience not from books." I train with many Internal masters in the U.S.A. and in China, and every Teacher I learn from had Conditioning training, Even Tai Chi. so for you to write and say impact Condition is Irrelevant, in my opinion is Bull $hit."


the hard i talk of is the hardness of letting go.

A person can let go all they want, but if they are not skill in the right fighting method. and fight a real Martial Artist, The only thing they will be letting go of is they life."


Shen, YI, CHI, for me these are the cornerstones of my training and understanding.

If you ever come to new York I love To met up with you and see with my own two eyes, you stop me utilizing just Shen, YI, ChI with out any kind of conditioning training. Like I said before people love to talk a good game.


The TC people that I have met in SF are very real with their art. They will and can hurt you if they want to.
To think otherwise is a mistake.

So can I." If you think I'm just talking $hit that can be a very big mistake. Like I said before if a tai chi practitioner is not condition for fighting he his good as dead in my book. but you or any of your tc people in SF ever come to New York I will welcome you with open plams, because I think otherwise. I love to see a tai chi person stop my Bagua plams with just chi and no real training. This I have to see."


haveing said this, it's always the person and their understanding of their art that makes it real.

Any person can learn to understand any art. Being practical with yourself is what makes a person martial art real."

Count write:The fight you mentioned (twice) happened more than 44 years ago (the year I was born, actually).

Count Who cares if it happened 44 years or even a 100 years ago, the bottom line is they got beatdown "KNOCKOUT" Where was they Shen, YI or Chi then?

I will say this, he used Baji not tai chi,

Count I know who the guy is and I have been to MR. Su Yu web site where the information is. I'm a fighter so I How to know things about other fighters.


(If you are of a mind to read some theory)

I have over a 100 books on all kinds of Martial art Theory internal and external, and anybody that knows me will tell you I'm always reading and trying new things to enhance my skills.

The only beef I have with people is , people that talk all Theory but can't utilize it in a practical way.

peace

[blacktaoist]

Bamboo leaf, dont take my statements the wrong way. I'm a very practical mind person when it comes to martial arts. So if a person say they can utilize tai chi with just chi I have to see That $hit with my own to eyes and feel this chi power you are talking about.

People can lie, but my own body and two eyes will never lie to me."
Peace

[bamboo_ leaf]

Wow so much anger,

As I’ve said before I’m not here to prove anything to anybody only to share a point that I have arrived at in my own training.

I have tried to get people from here and other forums to meet up with and exchange some ideas so far I have only met a couple.

Anyway, conditioning. First (again)

When I was playing hop gar. As you may know it’s a long range style. Having iron forearms is a big plus. Also being able to withstand hitting is also a big plus. The teachers at that time seemed to really enjoy (helping?) us to acquire those attributes.
After a run we would come back sit for 20min and then get helped by the teachers before our training even started.

I met my first mantis teacher in Korea after being hit by his student that I didn’t see move.
I was looking for some long arm but found it instead.

The first week in my TC class in HI, I asked if this stuff would really work, and was bounced off a wall by one of the older students.

Now we come back to conditioning.

I think conditioning depends on what you want to condition your self for, if it’s the current ring type of fighting then you need to be able to have very good endurance among many other things.

If its as you say “fighting” mmm I don’t know my kung fu includes brick fu, chair fu, anything that I can use fu. I’m from the city the few fights that I have seen and been in had no rules. Run fu works well too!!!


My point is that TC is supposed to be able to swallow and spit, what I have found is that if I make my body like a little tank then my tendency is to use force against force. Why would I need to develop such ting jin (listening) skills if I don’t need it.

Where I push in the park if you use force you can get hurt by your own force. Seen it, felt it, know it.

So I never say that I’m some TC badass or something only that this is what I have come to believe. I have met to many TC people who don’t understand force and how to neutralize it. They use force, speed or some type of tech. this is not what I’m looking for.

If having an iron body was such a skill why spend so much time standing and walking around in a circle?

Train to your level of usage, but know your ability. Many don’t.

test it until it works, and if it dosn't (och!! damm that hurt) find out why. keep training until you can do it or find another art that you understand.

hey this is only a BBS, just here to share and offer some views

peace

[Kevin Wallbridge]

Black Taoist, there are times when I feel that you overstate the poor abilities of internal stylists. Its not that I don't agree that most of what exists is crap, but I personally prefer to focus on who and what is good in the internals. I really respect your views, but I sometimes wonder if anyone comes up to your standard? Peace.

That being said I agree with you totally on the issue of conditioning and training methodology. Its all very good to "swallow and spit," but what if your opponent is subtle as well? Its not enough for Taiji stylists to think that they will only face low-level Shaolin guys. Its good to know how to let force land on a cloud, but sometimes steel is more appropriate.

My teacher, Eric Tuttle, has worked with some first class Muy Tai guys in Ontario and they don't know what to do with him. Their devastating cut kicks bounce off his legs and they scream when they taste his "wind sweeps the cobblestones." Usually he says he just touches them and "sticks" them in place. I know what he means by this because I have felt him load up my frame with a touch that leaves me virtually frozen in place. He's "got the Qi."

As for the earlier comments about people not directly answering the thread, I think that the issue of just what the question was begged for some clarification at first. Here many use the term Qi very loosely and with a vagueness that borders on arcane.

Many good posts here.

[Justa Man]

but BT, i thought conditioning the body to take hits would be deadening the nerve endings in those areas. so when one reaches old man stage, then one has health problems.
like all that training of thrusting palms into hot pebbles or sand or striking trees. that's all good for skills now, but when old man stage comes, doesn't that lead to crippled hands or damaged nerves?
it seems to me that this kind of training is all good for reaching higher fighting levels, but worse, overall, on the body.
any thoughts (from anyone)?

maoshan,
thanks for addressing my previous post. no one else paid it mind. the stuff you spoke of seems to build chi sensation in the body. but what kind of exercises build your actual chi? or did i read what you wrote wrong? will doing such different chi gungs as you mentioned build more chi in my body, or will they just build more chi feelings (sensations....tingling hands, swelling feeling, etc)?


for example
say i've lead a life of abusing my body....drinking, smoking, drugs, etc. i take up the internal arts and drop all bad habits. now, i'm doing all this chi gung and i feel all types of sensations...tingling, heat, feeling like i'm covered by a blanket, etc. but i have a low level of chi in my bank to start out with from the abuse i gave my body. so the chi that i am working with isn't very much. it's like i took a rubber band and stretched it really far. what exercises give me more rubber band to work with? do you catch my meaning? what gives me more chi to work with in chi gung?
thanks for helping me understand man.

[blacktaoist]

{Wow so much anger,

I have no anger. I'm just telling you my opinion, and where I stand.



{If its as you say “fighting” mmm I don’t know my kung fu includes brick fu, chair fu, anything that I can use fu. I’m from the city the few fights that I have seen and been in had no rules. Run fu works well too!!!


Where in any of my statements I talk about rules. Fighting is fighting where I'm from. Noboby cares about if you know Tai Chi . pushhands, Chi or whatever." Bottom line is, you better know how to use it. There are no rules in any real fight no matter where a person is from. And Yes I had to utilize Run Fu a few times in my Life. I'm no master. "



{My point is that TC is supposed to be able to swallow and spit, what I have found is that if I make my body like a little tank then my tendency is to use force against force. Why would I need to develop such ting jin (listening) skills if I don’t need it.

Thats your opinion,and you have a right to your belief. But I stand by my viewpoints. Most tai Chi practitioners can't fight." Intill someone prove me wrong I stand by opinion.



{As I’ve said before I’m not here to prove anything to anybody only to share a point that I have arrived at in my own training


I never ask you to prove anything I just welcome you to met up with me in New York so I can see you utilize this Chi you are talking about. Thats all no beef."



{ Where I push in the park if you use force you can get hurt by your own force. Seen it, felt it, know it


You can't hurt a person if you can't detected they force. And Who to say Your opponent is going to use all yang." I know I'm not."



{The first week in my TC class in HI, I asked if this stuff would really work, and was bounced off a wall by one of the older students.

Maybe you need to develop Root? But Every New student get Bounced nothing esoteric about it in any way. A normal thing when a person don't know the Tai Chi game." "RELAXATION."

{If having an iron body was such a skill why spend so much time standing and walking around in a circle?

I never said anything about Iron body skill. I live in the real world. Where a person have to train for real. Real fights have real full contact. There are many ways of handing out punishment to your opponent and only two ways of taking it, badly or like a pro. I think I like to take it like a pro." Conditioning in my mind have nothing to do with any Iron body.

but have to do with absorbing some impact. Every real fighter knows you will get hit in a fight. And If you are not use to absorbing some punishment then you are good as dead, and thats the genuine true. No Chi kung or Pushhands is going to save your ass."



{why spend so much time standing and walking around in a circle?

Answer: 1. DISCIPLINE -BUILDING STRENGTH WITH AWARENESS(YI) NOTHING MORE.


{Train to your level of usage, but know your ability. Many don’t.

I know my Ability, and many in the so-called internal are not up to my ability.

[test it until it works, and if it dosn't (och!! damm that hurt) find out why. keep training until you can do it or find another art that you understand.

Been there did that with many internal teachers, I know the true way of internal Training. And I understand There is no mystical and invisible power. Chi is practical practice, not some mystical chi bull$hit.




{hey this is only a BBS, just here to share and offer some views

I feel the same way, but I going to be Practical with my views.


peace.

[fiercest tiger]

what happened to good structure, and body alignment, rooting?

in my style chi is only that CHI! I think many internal people over use this word and make it all mystical thinking they can do amazing feats.

we call luk ging lup hup using mind, chi, breathe, body alignment for power. if the structure is good and you have good timing you can knockout someone with a good jab! chi flows when you have luk ging in ykm perfect body alignment, does the internal styles use this method?

dont make chi mystical, its all around us it flows when everything is aligned with breath,mind and body.

[blacktaoist]

Kevien WallBridge:I really respect your views, but I sometimes wonder if anyone comes up to your standard? Peace.

If somebody ask me a question, I'm going to tell them the genuine truth. My statements have nothing to do with standard..... but most so- called internal fighters I met had nothing. That have a lot to do with standard thats just the truth and facts nothing more. $hit *I train with many masters in New York china town that will put me on my ass in no time. So my standard means alot to Me in a way. If a person can't live up to what they say they can do in the internal Martial arts then they skills are false.



Just A Man:but BT, i thought conditioning the body to take hits would be deadening the nerve endings in those areas. so when one reaches old man stage, then one has health problems.

If you don't have the right knowledge on how to condition any body can hurt themself. $hit people can get hurt and deaden they nerve endings from practicing Chi Kung or the Tai Chi Form wrong. So whats your point?


Bottom line, any can of practice can injurie themself if they don't know what they are doing.


peace.

[swmngdragn]

Hi, gents.

Chi is just a byproduct of *correct* practice/training, structure, mechanics, etc.... You don't train with the goal in mind to "mystically" bounce people, or whatever else. The problem in todays CMA's, in general, is the lack of correct training practices, or time, or attitude, the computer, television, family, etc... There're a myriad reasons why people can't/won't train correctly to achieve the desired results. This all boils down to desire to achieve the results wanted, and correct teaching/learning.


Big problem is that there're *very* few teachers who even have a piece of the puzzle, and those are hard to find. Let alone find a teacher who has a realistic, systematic approach to the subject, *and* has the entire puzzle worked out. *Those* are even fewer, and harder to find.

[bamboo_ leaf]

I think many people don’t believe things because they haven’t run into it yet.

It’s my experience that these things change as your ideas change based on your exposer to different people. People follow what they believe in. I follow this, it works for me.

Nothing is better

I also haven’t met to many TC people either who can really do it. Really using softness to overcome the hard. The ones that can really do it, it is very, very differnt from most of what i read here.

[bamboo_ leaf]

“Its all very good to "swallow and spit," but what if your opponent is subtle as well? Its not enough for Taiji stylists to think that they will only face low-level Shaolin guys. Its good to know how to let force land on a cloud, but sometimes steel is more appropriate”

then train more, become softer. If this is what you follow.

My point on most of this is that to really be able to use it you have to make some fundamental changes in your thinking. Most people are not really willing to let go.

I would say the steel that you talk of is the ability to change. Not if I take your meaning the ability to issue force against force.

No it’s not easy. Even among many TC players this is not an easy thing to do judging by many of the postings here. It takes time.

these are things that i have found and am working on in my own training and understanding. i think every one has to find there own truth. this is mine.

[maoshan]

Kevin W.
First I'd like to clearify this.

[I really respect your views, but I sometimes wonder if anyone comes up to your standard?]

That's one of the reasons that we post with such aggression sometimes. The standard that most think is good is crap in view of the true martial arts. We do have high standards. Why? what's the point in half @$$ing it. If it's for health that you train, Fine.
but if it's the martial arts that you claim that you want you have to embrace it like a lover. most of the people that TBT and myself have met, that claimed this and that and really felt that they were good, have been given that rude awakening that those that delude themselves fear.

The standard of Martial arts in general in the west is $hit. All of our teachers have told us so. I've seen it myself in comparing
a student of TC who trained in China for 3yrs compared to a guy who trained for over 10. You would have thought it was reverced.

Our teachers have taken us out side of the class so that they could teach us properly. Didn't you know that most good teachers
change thier curriculum to teach in the west? Why? because most are lazy and or just can't take it. One of our goals is to raise the standard. other than that ..hang it up

JustaMan.

[i thought conditioning the body to take hits would be deadening the nerve endings in those areas. so when one reaches old man stage, then one has health problems.]

Have you ever heard of the "Lohan Patting Method"?
There are many Qi-Gongs that are conditioning methods and as far as hurting your internal to the point that when you are old your body is broke down, that's just incorrect training. besides it's done in conjuction with herbs that help maintain the body's balance.

Now for the question that you asked me:
How do you have a Chi feeling with out it being actual Chi? I've never experianced that.

[will doing such different chi gungs as you mentioned build more chi in my body, or will they just build more chi feelings (sensations....tingling hands, swelling feeling, etc)?]

In truth it will build more. True Chi Kung always gives you confermations. If you've been doing a method and you have no sensation what so ever your doing it wrong. Chi is the commander of the Blood. Where ever the focus there is going to be a sensation.

As for your example:
What will help bring back more Chi?
A proper balanced Diet, An even state of mind, Tonic herbs and standing post.
Diligent work will see the effects in 100 days.

Fiercest Tiger

[what happened to good structure, and body alignment, rooting?
perfect body alignment, does the internal styles use this method?]

This the most fundamental as pect of the training. If it does not exist, then your not an Internal Boxer. Without alignment, Your energy neither flow nor can you root.

Swmngdragn
tuff responce

Peace
Maoshan