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Thread: Who Has Chi

  1. #46
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    You know, unlike the guy from , Vision Quest some of us Taijiquan practitioners neither spit nor swallow.

    Personally, I think the majority of Taiji practitioners need to be more aggressive. You cannot be totally soft or totally passive and expect to win a fight.
    Last edited by Sam Wiley; 12-30-2001 at 07:25 AM.

  2. #47

    Wink

    I think people find what they want.
    The people that I have met where very soft and yet could easily send you flying or break something. All done for the most part with your own force.

    “You cannot be totally soft or totally passive and expect to win a fight.”

    If your training gets so far off the track, you may be a good “fighter” but is it the real TC skill that many talk about? To be soft is not passive, but it’s also not active either.
    enjoy life

  3. #48
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    Anybody can uproot people and send them flying or bouncing off walls, but it is not necessarily internal force or true skill. With proper body mechanics and proper positioning and from the proper angle, you could send someone flying across the rooms or bouncing off a wall with minimum effort, but these things are purely physical and not indicative of true internal power. I can pull someone past me and send them flying across the room with minimum physical effort and yet no internal power. I can lift someone off their feet with a push and send them flying, as well, but without using true internal power.

    On the other hand, I can use true internal power and not move the opponent more than a few inches, and yet deliver a shockwave inside his body.

    I'm not bragging about anything, I'm just saying that sending people flying great distances is not always the best indicator of internal power.

    Having used what I have learned in real fights, I can say that it looked only vaguely similar to the training methods, forms, etc, that I have learned. I do not expect the way I fight to look like a push hands session, nor do I think others should view a fight with, for instance a Taiji practitioner as one of the contestants, and expect the Taiji man's movements to look like he was practicing push hands or a form on the other person.

    Learning to fight with martial arts involves two separate areas. The first is learning to use a martial art as a martial art, and this is largely a sport usage, which is supposed to look like a martial art anyway because you are trying to use techniques to fight with. The second is learning to actually fight, and your martial art is a stepping stone into this area, where when you fight you are not doing so for sportive means nor are your movements going to be easily recognizable as any particular martial art. The public rarely hears about the second area, as they are bombarded with movies and sorry television shows that keep their attention on the first area, as well as "realistic" fight events that are sport and not reality. While there is nothing wrong with learning to fight in a ring or learning to fight and make it look like a martial art is being used, it is different and should be kept separate from learning to use a martial art to learn to fight (for self-defense for instance).

    On a slightly related note, if someone already knows how to fight, why would they be taking a martial art? Why would they need one?

    I remember reading portions of some of the modern "classics" of Taiji that talk of sending the opponent "straight to hell" and not across the room. Some of the other classics speak specifically of breaking limbs and things like that. Neither of these things have anything to do with throwing, pushing or pulling people across rooms or whatever, though they have to do with skill. But these things cannot be accomplished if you are never aggressive or are not occasionally "hard."

    Most of the people I hear or read speaking of "the real Taiji skill" are intellectually postulating on something they have never physically experienced or seen, though they might think they have. This is the reason, as has been stated in this thread, that some people have to see this "skill" before they will believe it exists. In the end, Taiji is a tool for learning to fight, and it is the way, the method, not necessarily the technique or the appearance that is important. Fighting is a simple thing that many think too hard about. The martial arts are there to improve your chances of actually winning by giving you certain advantages.

  4. #49
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    If you don't have the right knowledge on how to condition any body can hurt themself. $hit people can get hurt and deaden they nerve endings from practicing Chi Kung or the Tai Chi Form wrong. So whats your point?
    I had no point really. I was just asking for your opinion on what I thought.
    Have you ever heard of the "Lohan Patting Method"?
    Actually no. But I will look into it. Thanks Maoshan.
    only gin and tang guzzle out a rusty tin can, me and this mic is like yin and yang

  5. #50
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    "I remember reading portions of some of the modern "classics" of Taiji that talk of sending the opponent "straight to hell" and not across the room."

    Yes, there are many places in the classics which refer to this kind of application--"use strangle holds to block the opponent's circulation", and "use the finger to stab his vital points".

    "Neither of these things have anything to do with throwing, pushing or pulling people across rooms or whatever, though they have to do with skill."

    These things (pushing, pulling) are also a part of taiji, although definitely not the wisest choice in a life or death confrontation.--"If we are sealed off by our opponent's ward-off, then we must try PULL-DOWN or split". Also see "The Song of Push".

    "But these things cannot be accomplished if you are never aggressive or are not occasionally "hard." "

    Yes, there is hard in taiji, but not I think in the way you mean. It sounds like you mean occasionaly we should give up being soft and yielding, and use muscle strength to accomplish our goal. Why do I think this? Because you said "occasionaly hard". In taiji, one is always hard AND soft at the same time. You shouldn't think about being hard, however, to accomplish your goal because you will probably end up tensing.--"Taiji in its martial aspect is soft on the outside and hard on the inside....It is not that we deliberately think of hardness, for in reality our minds are on softness."

    I am kind of playing devil's advocate here, because I generally agree with what you're saying.

    Respectfully,
    --t.s.
    "Duifang jing zhi meng ji, wo fang tui zhi ce fang xi zhi."

  6. #51
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    Why Bounce them off

    why the hell would you bounce someone away when you can jusy hammer there a$$?

    bouncing is only leverage and thats all!


  7. #52

    Wink

    “Most of the people I hear or read speaking of "the real Taiji skill" are intellectually postulating on something they have never physically experienced or seen, though they might think they have”

    ya right.

    And you have seen it all.

    Read you statement and then think about what it says.

    They might or they think they have. Such a closed mind for a teacher. You might as well say that you’re the king of the hill.

    If some one has the ability to send you flying it’s because they don’t want to hurt you.
    If some one can lock up your arm it also can be broken.
    Let me say it real slow, if you have good TC and some one uses force they end up getting hurt by their own force.


    “In taiji, one is always hard AND soft at the same time. You shouldn't think about being hard, however, to accomplish your goal because you will probably end up tensing.--"Taiji in its martial aspect is soft on the outside and hard on the inside....It is not that we deliberately think of hardness, for in reality our minds are on softness”

    If you are hard on the inside then this is also a mistake, you can be easily followed. Hardness is tension. One aspect of TC is the ability to change with the other.

    The higher the ability the less force used, the less force resisted. The idea (and reality for those that can) is not to give anything to the other person unless you want to. They have nothing to push against. (or hit) this is not easy it takes awhile and you must have some one who can really do it to help you to get it.

    Why? Because most people cannot really believe or consider this aspect. They will talk about leverage, killer intent, and real fighting. They refuse to belive because they can't do it and haven't met anyone who can.

    i can understand this.



    “I can pull someone past me and send them flying across the room with minimum physical effort and yet no internal power. I can lift someone off their feet with a push and send them flying, as well, but without using true internal power”

    Sam, read “ I” in all of your descriptions, i thought the idea was to stick, follow, release. to do these things you must have some idea or ability of "ting jin" i don't quite understand what is "true internal power"

    for the most part i only use the others power.

    hey almost new year, have a good one all.
    As BT said i guess sooner or later we just have to meet, hopfully to share and learn from each other.

    luck in training
    enjoy life

  8. #53
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    "No_Know
    [So, the ch'i is conducted to? when doing the t'ai chi ch'uan form.]
    What are you saying here? "

    Conducted refers to, came from somewhere and went through something then went somewhere. The poster claimed qi as conducted. I asked to where is it conducted.

    "As to the second part of what your saying:
    The two people are equal in every thing as far as the training is concerned, except using the tree methods. "

    They both have the same style of slow form and pushhands , but because one did tree training too, that one spent Less time as the other at slow forms or Push hands. Also, if there is any qi to T'ai Chi Ch'uan the tree training might block or somehow inhibit the stereotypical flowing of qi as the arms might get naturally tense with the tree training.

    "The one, not having trained the tree method has to lose."

    You are wrong. Since T'ai Chi Ch'uan nullifies, having tougher arms/hands doesn't benefit you against T'ai Chi Ch'uan applied appropriately.

    " With or without a good teacher the result would be the same. If both are training the sensitivity with the same intensity with the exception of the tree… "

    There are teachers on these forums, from sifus to masters, at least. Some have more skill at teaching than the others. Even if they had the same Skill level they have differing Experience levels. The Experience of the teacher Could very well make for different results than you seem to think. Different people learn from differnt ways.~ The ways they are taught they might not be getting it. As I've pointed out by stating, the tree traing/conditioning is not a significant factor when used in a fight of two T'ai Chi Ch'uan people. With damage capability of the tree training in a force on force fight nuetralized by appropriate use of T'ai Chi Ch'uan principles, the winner is whoever uses those principles most appropriately in that fight on that day at that moment in that place.~

    "Come on you figure it out. "

    Hopefully, you can see that I DID figure it out.
    There are four lights...¼ impulse...all donations can be sent at PayPal.com to qumpreyndweth@juno.com; vurecords.com

  9. #54
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    While I have not seen everything, I do not speak as if I have. On the other hand, I have heard a lot of baloney from people that makes me want to both laugh and vomit at the same time. It is quite obvious what is bull and what is not, and I am sorry if some cannot handle when someone says they smell bull in another's statement.

    I know exactly what happens when someone uses force against me and I use what little I have learned so far to defend against it, having injured training partners in the past before I learned some control, and also having several permanent and painful injuries myself as reminders of what happens when too much force is used on the other end, including having one of my front teeth broken out when I tried to force a technique.

    What I am saying is that these circus tricks, such as launching someone across a room, are not indicators of true skill. While it is true that someone with superior skill may not wish to hurt a person and will therefore send that person flying with a throw, that is not a measure of how much skill they have, simply that they can send the person flying in response to an attack. What I am saying is that tricks like that are easy, so easy to accomplish by anyone with a simple knowledge of physics or with sufficient physical strength, and therefore are not true indicators of whether someone possesses true skill.

    To send someone flying across the room with a push or a pull does not require ting jing or any other kind of skill.

    Taijiquan Student,
    Several of the terms for Taiji skills or techniques are not directly translatable. Some have simply been translated incorrectly. There are no pushes or pulls in Taijiquan except at the very basest level. "Push" is the name of a posture, while "press" is the name of the technique generally associated with it. Pushing is not a skill in Taiji. The case is similar with "pull down" the character for which is sometimes translated as "pluck." Pulling is not a skill in Taiji. As yet another example, "press" would be more correctly translated as "squeeze." Please note that I did not say to use more muscular strength. What I said was that Taiji practitioners should be more aggressive and harder. I realize that many associate hardness with muscular strength in regards to Taiji, but I assure you that I did not mean it that way.

    Bamboo Leaf,
    There are several members of this board I would love to meet and train with and learn from as well. Maybe one day we will be able to meet and trade knowledge. One of the things I would love to discuss is sticking, adhering and following. Kind of difficult to write about it, much easier to demonstrate.

  10. #55
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    Sam...

    Ni hui shuo hanyu ma? Wo hui yidianr zhongwen, danshi wo shuo de bu hao. Ni de taijiquan laoshi shi shenme? Ni lian shenme jia? Suo yi, ni hui bu hui shuo?

    I was just wondering if you speak chinese, seeing as you know so much about the meanings of the characters for the techniques of taijiquan. (sorry if I seem overly rude, but I just want to know if you should be basing some of your ideas of what should be in taijiquan upon the meanings of ther chinese words.)

    I agree that pushing should not be a skill to use when applying taiji in a martial situation (generally), what do you mean by "that is not a measure of how much skill they have, simply that they can send the person flying in response to an attack." Wouldn't you say that if someone is attacked, and they end up sending the attacker flying across the room, that they have some skill?

    Also, could you please describe what you mean by "hard"? I know now you don't mean muscle-strength, but I'm still not sure I get exactly what you mean.

    Respectfully,
    --t.s.
    "Duifang jing zhi meng ji, wo fang tui zhi ce fang xi zhi."

  11. #56
    hi I don't practice any tai chi or hsing yi etc internal arts
    but i have practiced pak hok pai for 6 years. i have tried doing some seated meditation for chi
    in Pak Hok pai i have also practiced a particular movement over and over. on the first time i was able to carry out this technique perfectly i was able to sense chi. the feeling is hard to describe but u know it when it happens. this is only a very basic one i think but it has helped me develop my sense of chi. nowadays when i do adominal breathing i can sense chi flowing out of my hands or being sucked in from the air around my hands.
    when i put my palms close together i can also sense my chi and genearte heat between them that is diff from normal
    i don't want to sound like i m nuts lol but it is true.
    in pak hok pai there are also a number of forms where like tai chi they are performed slowly , in these forms also chi is developed and used. each technique has combat applications.


  12. #57

    ..

    sam is good. i wish i had his experiences, minus the teeth popping out bit, of course...

    he's right, though, that you can bounce people away a good distance if you have the right control of your body, and if conditions are favorable. taijiquan is just reputed for it because it has many movements that utilize this sort of move, and not because it makes practitioners super strong or anything. taijiquan is somewhat centered around using small force to overcome a much stronger enemy. this is often done by bouncing him away. structure and timing are the keys in this matter. doing other things like tensing the muscles around the joints may help, as will slightly tensing to move qi to that area to energize the muscles, but i agree with sam that it is a very physical skill that anyone can learn.

    sam is also correct in that taijiquan practitioners need more than the blunt attacks that it has been used for so often in this century. while they may bounce an attacker away, or throw him this way or that, in a real fight that is a dangerous thing unless you have a lot of skill. damaging movements are really what win a fight, and in order to do anything with those, you need to actually fight. fighting isn't romantic or fun. you will always be nervous, have adrenaline, and have the chance to injure yourself. while it may seem at first to be neat, i would not advise fighting. i have seen a lot of them in the short time i've been around, and while i love watching them, those people fighting aren't having fun. i'm glad i have been in very few fights. what if somewhat slips a pipe out of their coat, or pulls a knife? sparring is really what people need to practice. the more experience, the less controlled the sparring should be, because the more competently they will be able to handle themselves against eachother, and the closer to real world danger it is.

    i looked at a preview thing on yang jwingming's site for a book of translations of yang banhou's classics. as we all know, yang banhou was a pretty tough guy. i like his approach, because he was sophisticated, but still very harsh. here are some quotes from it:

    "the right heel kick is used to tread soft ribs."
    "the technique of attacking the ears with the fists is effective."
    "turn the body and kick with the heel is aiming at the knee cap."
    "raising up the knee to attack the vital place (groin)"... "it is hard to show mercy."
    "when cross leg is used, the soft bone (sternum) will be broken."

    it's neat that someone was able to translate over 40 of yang banhou's classics. all you taijiquan guys out there should get the book. it's neat to see insight from famous taijiquan fighters back in the days when it was famous for it's fighting.

  13. #58

    Wink

    www.geocities.com/mantiscave

    To Sam and all the rest.
    Some of you use real names, some have web sites.

    I know that some might not understand what I say. This is a point that I have arrived at, painfully I might add. When we talk of TC I can see it’s very hard. There are things that people can have done to them but can’t do, and there are people who understand but can’t do.

    I would say that I fall into having done and relearning to do. My understanding at this point is changing, still very much a beginner in this art.

    I wanted to share some of it because I felt it might help clear what I would say are misunderstandings about TC that i read about.

    Anything that I write or say publicly I stand by. It’s not my intent to change a mind or defend something only offer hopefully another viewpoint.

    We are talking about using TC for fighting but let me ask you, are you really sung, (relaxed) are you ?



    Any way if you go to this site it will show me listed under one of my teachers, his life reads like a MA novel. very, very real.

    In the plum flower branch. The title is not important he is my teacher / i am his student that is all. it is a point that I have come from.

    My given name is Dalton E. Davis, most people call me David.
    I’m not sure about this as I said I wanted those that I have come to know and respect to also know a little about me.

    i started my TC training in the early 80s, now its all i do.


    peace
    Last edited by bamboo_ leaf; 12-31-2001 at 01:06 AM.
    enjoy life

  14. #59
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    Alright before I start.

    Sam,
    Good post, I'ts good to see you in the forum.

    Now
    No_know,

    I can see that you DON'T KNOW!
    I said TC is a conductor, not a builder.
    Chi moves through the relaxed body, tension hinders the flow.
    Common knowledge.
    Martial jing or power is aquierd through work. The slow form and push hands by itself will not develop this. If it was true, than why did Yang Cheng Fu practice (if I remember right) "Play the guitar
    and Replulse the Monkey" with a 40 pound weight attached to his index finger by a string. this is the modern day master that created the form that most follow today( Yang style has the largest following). You lack true martial experiance which leads me to think that either the books that you are getting your info from are the new age type(the older books have more info on how the masters themselves trained) or your teacher(if he's good) has not revealed such training methods to you because it would hinder your progress because your already too tense and harder training would make a bad situation worse.
    If your true to the game, you need to do a lot more research.

    As to the second part,
    and this really shows your inexperiance,

    How do you come to the conclusion that because of the tree training that he had to practice the push hands less?
    How do you know that I'm talking about banging on the trees?
    There are more methods for using a tree than just banging on.
    the taoist Bear method is just one.
    Now as to actually banging and causing damage or causing tension, there's a method. You just don't go swingging like a fool.
    Hit a tree wrong once and you'll know exactly what Im mean.

    ["The one, not having trained the tree method has to lose."

    You are wrong. Since T'ai Chi Ch'uan nullifies, having tougher arms/hands doesn't benefit you against T'ai Chi Ch'uan applied appropriately.]

    No, your wrong.
    If I have more power with the same degree of sensitivity as you,
    YOU WILL LOSE.
    If only for the fact that my root is going to be stronger than yours because of the tree training. My stronger root and sensitive hands allow me to do things you can't with out violating the principles.

    Your piont about no 2 people being the same in terms of understanding is correct. but if you have a competant teacher,
    he can ajust to each individual. Surly you've seen people that were even at push hands.

    [As I've pointed out by stating, the tree traing/conditioning is not a significant factor when used in a fight of two T'ai Chi Ch'uan people. With damage capability of the tree training in a force on force fight nuetralized by appropriate use of T'ai Chi Ch'uan principles, the winner is whoever uses those principles most appropriately in that fight on that day at that moment in that place.~ ]



    There's an old saying that, "The External, as they progress,they lean toward the soft, and the Internal leads to the hard.
    Simply making this statement "day, moment, place" is any fight.
    Also it's avoiding the point being made.
    It's like Sam said (paraphrasing) I don't have to bounce you against a wall to prove my point. Because just like Sam again,
    My strikes don't back you up, You just drop.
    This is the Internal and this is what we're talking about.

    Your book theory is alright for the health nuts, but against some one like me....
    You have a problem.
    Look, I know your style better than you do and thats bad considering it's not my specialty. Do more research and train alot harder. one day you might get a glance of what I'm talking about.



    [Hopefully, you can see that I DID figure it out.]

    NO. You didn't.

  15. #60
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    Consider me to not have an instructor, merely comprehension

    "How do you come to the conclusion that because of the tree training that he had to practice the push hands less? "


    "Take two people, train both of them in the same method using the slow form and push hands etc. except with one of them you employee tree methods. Do this for a year. And bring them up against each other in push hands, which do you, think would win? "

    No conclusion, they both trained for a year's time. One did two things. One did three things. The one who did tree methods would have spent less at at least one of the two things the other person was also doing.

    "I can see that you DON'T KNOW!
    I said TC is a conductor, not a builder.
    Chi moves through the relaxed body, tension hinders the flow.
    Common knowledge. "

    Yet, you still haven't said to where it's conducted.

    "Martial jing or power is aquierd through work. The slow form and push hands by itself will not develop this. If it was true, than why did Yang Cheng Fu practice (if I remember right) "Play the guitar
    and Replulse the Monkey" with a 40 pound weight attached to his index finger by a string. this is the modern day master that created the form that most follow today( Yang style has the largest following)."

    "Play the Guitar" and "Repulse the Monkey" are techniques in the forms. They for intents and purposes here count as form. Saying that a well known--famous, martial artist ( a great man) trained his form is still saying that, part of his being great came from doing Form.

    "How do you come to the conclusion that because of the tree training that he had to practice the push hands less? How do you know that I'm talking about banging on the trees? "

    You mentioned conditioning which suggests the hitting the tree. Hitting the tree does not suggest pushing hands with the tree.

    "There are more methods for using a tree than just banging on.
    the taoist Bear method is just one."

    Yet with hitting methods being common with trees, you did not specify. It is acceptable to take what you;re saying at the more common understanding of tree methods.



    " No, your wrong.
    If I have more power with the same degree of sensitivity as you,
    YOU WILL LOSE. "

    T'ai Chi Ch'uan absorbs and nullifies power and deflects/redirects~force. You don't seem to be talking about the example now. If I'm appropriate, I would not lose.~

    "If only for the fact that my root is going to be stronger than yours because of the tree training. My stronger root and sensitive hands allow me to do things you can't with out violating the principles. "

    Because of the tree training It does not seem to be a fact that your root would be better (again you seem to be away from the case mentioned). Different perhaps, but not necessarily better.

    "Simply making this statement "day, moment, place" is any fight.
    Also it's avoiding the point being made. "

    Placed in context, that satement addresses that there is more to your physical~ training to win. No avoiding a point. You might care to mentin what point you have in mind that I supposedly was trying to avoid.

    "My strikes don't back you up, You just drop. "

    According to you, My conditioning if good enough might not give you the drop me effect.

    "This is the Internal and this is what we're talking about. "

    "Your book theory is alright for the health nuts, but against some one like me....
    You have a problem."

    I had a book theory?

    "Look, I know your style better than you do and thats bad considering it's not my specialty. Do more research and train alot harder. one day you might get a glance of what I'm talking about. "

    You know My Style?

    ...A glimpse of Nothingness.
    There are four lights...¼ impulse...all donations can be sent at PayPal.com to qumpreyndweth@juno.com; vurecords.com

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