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Thread: Who Has Chi

  1. #61
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    Taijiquan Student,
    In answer to your questions, I speak only a little, and my accent is a bit off. I find English monotone to be much easier than multitone Chinese. Is that the problem you have as well? My Taiji teacher is Erle Montaigue, and I practice both the old and new Yang styles of Taiji as well as the Wudang system he teaches. I also practice Chiang style Bagua. So anyway, I guess I speak just enough Chinese. But when it comes to writing, I much prefer English.

    But no, I would not say that simply because someone sent the person flying he had some skill. I know people who have never trained in a martial art who can do that with ease. Many people are under the impression that fa-jing (which I understand many here are tired of hearing about) will send someone flying, but it does not. Sure, it will move them a bit, but not great distances, as fa-jing affects the inner workings more than the external frame. If you hit the right spot, the person will simply crumple to the ground, not even moving back.

    I have seen some Taiji people demonstrating push hands, for instance, and they yield so greatly that they bend over backwards or let their arm come very close to their chest. Both are wrong, and the way to fix it is to use a little muscle, but just enough to accomplish the goal and no more. (And when I talk about the muscles, I am not talking about the arm muscles.) On the other end of the scale are people who practice push hands and they are practically wrestling they use so much muscle. That's wrong as well.

    If you were totally relaxed, you would fall to the floor. If you want to stand, your leg muscles must work a bit. If you want to lift your arm, your arm muscles must work a bit. For self defense, they must work a bit more, but some people are too soft here and do not use enough. You see, Taiji is not a "soft" art, as there is really no such thing. It is loose. You cannot be soft and defend yourself, but you can be loose and defend yourself. These people who are too soft remind me of gelatin, not iron wrapped in cotton.

    What I mean by "harder" is more yang in nature. They need to raise more yang energy. They need to be more aggressive, more animal like. I guess this is something else I'd have to show you.

    Bamboo Leaf,
    I prefer to think of sung as looseness and not relaxation, because of the reason above. But yes, I am sung doing what I'm doing, by any definition. But you're right, it is difficult to write about the internal.

  2. #62
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    Sam Wiley has pointed in the right direction. In taiji you are trying to use the least amount of tension necessary to accomplish the task whether it be yielding, pushing hands, or fighting. It is logical that using the least amount of energy to accomplish any task reserves the highest amount of energy for later use.

  3. #63
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    Sam...I agree with what you say. However, I will say that there are different types of fa-jing--generally, long energy and short energy. You speak of short energy (not moving the opponent far but causing internal damage and an external shock-like effect), but there is also long energy if it is needed.
    I do think that short energy and "internal fajing" is what should be used in self-defense, long energy being mainly/only for demonstrating mechanics in class, not crippling students, etc.
    I have ordered a fair number of Erle's videos, and have picked out some useful information, although I sometimes disagree with him.

    I think we have virtually the same opinion, it's just so very hard to talk about this sort of this over the internet.
    "Duifang jing zhi meng ji, wo fang tui zhi ce fang xi zhi."

  4. #64
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    [The one who did tree methods would have spent less at at least one of the two things the other person was also doing]

    How do you come to this conclusion?
    A dedeicated practioner would not slack in any of the aspects.
    I disagree.

    [Yet, you still haven't said to where it's conducted.]

    O.K., to clearify this part for you.
    Because of the SUNG aspect of TC, you can circulate and thus project better. Thus the term conduct.

    ["Play the Guitar" and "Repulse the Monkey" are techniques in the forms. They for intents and purposes here count as form. Saying that a well known--famous, martial artist ( a great man) trained his form is still saying that, part of his being great came from doing Form.]

    But it's not simply doing the slow form as is being taught. Who do you know that practices this? Who do you know that is teaching this method? You don't.

    [You mentioned conditioning which suggests the hitting the tree. Hitting the tree does not suggest pushing hands with the tree.

    Your right. Excuse me for not being clear.
    Conditioning takes on many forms. I wrote from my experiance.
    My bad.

    As to the rest of what you've written,
    When this post was first written, it was more external vs Internal,
    As it progressed it became internal vs internal. As with the true internal most is hidden so the only way to answer the question is to test it. But for it to be a correct assessment the testers would have to be equal in the understanding of thier respective styles or methods(it might be the same style) other than that it seems that we could keep going back and forth with this. and until such a test can be arranged we'll both have our own opinions.

    Peace

  5. #65
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    Tai chi training has different stages or levels, each stage has different training method,condintion and weight training should be on the second stage "jing" training. in this stage you should more focus on single "fajing" practice use the single movement from the slow form or the fast form, shaking the spear, ball and using different havey weapons and striking tree with "kao" and "fa", also in this stage you get some chigong training to make your internal stronger to be able to take blows. pushhands and sansou training will be more harder.All tradtional tai chi styles have this stage training also each style has little difference. I think this part training is important for zz zzztaichi to fight. Then next stage is "song gong" then final stage is 'Chi Gong'. So the chi training is the last stage. Nowdays most
    taichi people just get into the first stage -doing forms and some push hands, or directly into the third and fourth stage, if you already have strong kungfu from other style you may skip the second stage get into "song" and "chi". if you are pure taichi without such kind training it' hard to win in a fight. that's why some guys practice taichi for long time stll can't fight or beaten by externer styles or shuaijiao. Using Chi to fight- none of great TaiChi master talked about it. Chen zhao kui , son of famous Chen Fa Ke . never belive chi can fight. He once taught students in Shanghai and one of his student was famous expert on "kong Jing" which means empty force and always talking about Chi and hitting people without touch them. So Chen said to him oneday " I will use "kao" on you see if you can use your empty force to countback" So he stiked the guy with "kao" the guy just fall down to the ground several meters away from Chen.

  6. #66
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    I've never heard of different types of fa-jing, but that concept is not one I place a lot of faith in. Fa-jing is simply fa-jing, violent and explosive. If someone claims to demonstrate fa-jing on someone and the subject is not hurt, injured, sickened or killed, etc. then it was not fa-jing. The body movement may have been correct, but it was not actual fa-jing. Demonstrating the body mechanics is fine, and understandable doing it that way since no one wants to injure their students, but it is not fa-jing.

    The concept of different kinds of jing is fine. P'eng jing, Lu jing, etc, are all fine, and I understand that concept and can see how it is useful in learning. But different types of fa-jing?

  7. #67
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    Yes, there are many types of jing, but there are also different ways to fajing. You can use short energy, or long energy. I guess these two would be the broadest categories. I could fajing using what you and Erle are talking about, or I could use longer energy. However, I would only ever use long energy in class, when practising fajing/mechanics, or push hands. Short energy and actual penetrating strikes is what should be used in self-defense. There are different ways to fajing, but I have noticed that Erle tends to stress just that one kind.

    One thing I think might be happening is this is just a mix-up of definitions and words. I would say that if some one is bringing jing up from their feet, to the waist, up the body and expressing it in their arms and hands to impose some sort of martial action against the opponent, then that is fajing. Fa means release, jing means, well, every one here knows what jin (actually I think it's technically jin not jing) is. Therefore, I would say any action that releases jin upon the other person is fajing. By this definition, there is more than one way to fajing. Maybe you could tell me your definition of fajing, because if it is that the fajing Erle talks about is the only fajing, I can think of techniques/movements that fall in no category. Please write back. I think it's pretty cool people can have discussions on KFO every now and then that don't end up being flames and trolls and generally disrespectful.
    "Duifang jing zhi meng ji, wo fang tui zhi ce fang xi zhi."

  8. #68
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    By your definition, yes, there are more ways than one to fa-jing. However, fa-jing was explained to me in specifics. For a great many physical actions, we must draw power from the earth, which travels up the legs to the waist and spine, and emits from the hands or other peripherals. But by this definition, simply pushing a box across the floor would be considered fa-jing, an action anyone with sufficient resources could accomplish and not an ability gained through hard work or indicative of skill. Also by this definition, simple attacks, such as pushing an opponent, would be considered fa-jing, as could just about any simple physical action requiring us to draw ground power up. This would make the internal arts the same as every other art if there were no difference in the way they moved or issued power. But there is a large difference in both the way of issuing power and the way of movement between the internal and external. While some hold that the "internal" is simply the advanced level of the martial arts, I personally believe that it is a completely different approach altogether. I will admit that I was not present for the invention of all the different martial arts, so at one time in the past, the statement that the internal is just the advanced level of many arts may have been true, but I feel that that is no longer the case.

    Anyway, the whole thing about channeling energy from the ground up still happens in Erle's type of fa-jing. Erle, however, places more emphasis on the explosive nature of the movement than many others do.

    Which techniques and/or movements do you feel fall into "no category" according to this definition of fa-jing?

  9. #69
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    I was thinking, if you said that the only fajing was the kind that Erle mostly talks about (the kind shown on his "Sudden Violence" and dim-mak tapes), then what would you say about press (squeeze)? It is a very different kind of jing than every thing else.

    I disagree about the pushing the box scenario. It is HOW you push the box. If you just shove it with your arm then it is not anything. But if you explosively push the box using your waist, while keeping sung and using the taiji principles, then it is fajing. You'd look pretty funny if you moved boxes like this, but it would be taiji-correct. However, it would only be fajing if there was some explosive nature to it. A push with no spring or compression/downward movement (depending on the type of fajing), is not fajing.

    I agree about the internal being a totally different approach than the external and having a different way of issuing power and movement.
    "Duifang jing zhi meng ji, wo fang tui zhi ce fang xi zhi."

  10. #70
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    shock power = ging

    I'll try and explain it like this if it makes any sense!

    Your standing in a club and someone behind you is smoking a cigarrett and they accidently burn you, you subconscously throw your arm away or around without thought.

    This is true ging, all you need to do is tap into this mindset and energy and you have it. Dont make it mystical again guys, taiji may be a nice art but its not as magical as you think. Fajing/ging is exploded from every part of the body at once because the whole body does ging! If the whole body doesnt do it then its not ging you are using external force more of a shoving motion.

    You have long energy and short energy both for healing and fighting!
    Last edited by fiercest tiger; 01-01-2002 at 04:16 PM.

  11. #71
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    sam

    hi mate,

    can you fajing in the air?

    also doesnt erle lift off the ground when he does fajing so where is his root?

    not starting an argument just interested in what you said about it starts from the earth and ends up at thelimb thats striking. i understand this method. but erle lifts off the ground!!

  12. #72
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    TS,
    I'm not sure what you mean by Ji (squeeze) being different than everything else. It's a spiralling pop, squeezing the elbows and the back's double bow in while contracting the abdominal muscles and twisting the waist. (Again, physical demonstration would be better.) In your form, if you are executing this movement as fa-jing (and provided that you are doing your form on the right side), your hands come down to your leftt side after Double P'eng, then turn over, and the left finger mounts touch the inside of the right radius. Your left hand is yin and your right hand is yang. They change state as you come forward, not before. If they do not change state during the movement, you have a dead push and not a strike.

    Somewhere on those tapes is this move done as fa-jing, I am sure. Maybe not on the sudden violence ones, but on the more traditional Taiji ones.

    Anyway, I understand what you're saying about the differences between explosive and non-explosive movements, but "long and short" fa-jing still sounds to me like unnecessary categorizations. Why would there be a need for the long if the short was what you needed for fighting? Why train in the other at all?

    Fiercest Tiger,
    I have that same thing happen more than you know. A girl I used to work with surprised me from behind a while back, and I elbowed her right in the chest. Completely accidental on my part, but she did intentionally sneak up on me and jab me in the ribs, after all. Anyway, yes, Erle's feet often lift off the ground completely, as do mine. If you mean can I fa-jing after having jumped into the air, I can, but I see no need for it. Your feet, though, do not necessarily have to be on the ground for fa-jing. You can perform fa-jing in pretty much any position, even if you have been picked up as in a throw or are wrestling on the ground, so you do not necessarily have to have your feet on the ground. But being rooted doesn't necessarily have to do with having your feet on the ground. For instance, their are exercises within both Taiji and Bagua (qigongs, actually) that teach us to remain stable on only one leg, and during these exercises you can feel the foot in the air being drawn to the ground. It's not muscular fatigue. It actually feels like someone reaches up and grabs your foot and pulls downward on it (but not to the point of dragging it to the ground). Taiji and qigong (well, Taiji IS qigong) help us to develop energy roots. And if, during fa-jing, your feet lift off the ground, those roots are not necessarily severed. It's a bit like how electricity can jump between one pole and another without the poles having to touch.

    In any case, the feet are not lifted off the ground on purpose. The feet only come up a centimeter or so because of the explosive nature of the movement. Usually, this is utilized as part of footwork, as a step forward, for instance. As the classics state, if one part of the body moves, the whole should be moving, and the whole body cannot be moving if your feet are not moving.
    Last edited by Sam Wiley; 01-01-2002 at 08:24 PM.

  13. #73
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    "But it's not simply doing the slow form as is being taught. Who do you know that practices this? Who do you know that is teaching this method? You don't. "

    It seems not necessarily clear What is not simply doing the slow form as it is being taught.

    Then you claim that I don't do the...No!, you are claiming (sarcasming) that I don't Teach...

    And, hopefully I do not Know anything.

    Very good, some-such, some might say, perhaps.
    There are four lights...¼ impulse...all donations can be sent at PayPal.com to qumpreyndweth@juno.com; vurecords.com

  14. #74
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    wow. so much verbal-fighting going on in this thread
    is this emanation of fighting the illusive fighting-qi that you guys speak of ? If so, I dont want any of it
    Sorry for absense, lots happening.

  15. #75
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    prana

    What would you have liked from this thread that isn't here?

    Verbal-fighting going on?
    Last edited by No_Know; 01-02-2002 at 08:04 AM.
    There are four lights...¼ impulse...all donations can be sent at PayPal.com to qumpreyndweth@juno.com; vurecords.com

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