defending knee attack

[flem]

how many of you rely on one leg stances or moving away to defend against knee kicks?

a more aggressive approach that WL offers thoughout the system involves drawing the knees together so that the two together reinforce one another. once this is done, various techniques are applied depending of course on what your opponent is doing. in the second pass of third form, after the sweeps(standing), this technique is applied with a straight punch to the body. in the first returning pass of lok low 1 a chopping technique is used(repeated 3 times) to attack the opponents knee. a similar variation is repeated in second form except this time the upward movement can either throw the opponent by catching their kick or can be used to defend your upper gates while applying a palm strike with the left hand.
these techniques are often superior to moving away 1 because they are unexpected and 2 they keep you in striking range. those of you in WL will find other variations as well and as i stated elsewhere they are designed to be interchanged depending on your opponents actions.,

[Pong Lai]

hopefully if someone is coming at your knee forcefully, you get it out of the way. Supporting it with your other knee just means you will have two knees knocked out.

Knees are one of the keys to all MA, definitely want to keep them intact. moving out of the way while at the same time adjusting to a stance that would allow an immediate counter is preferred. Stepping back into single leg , allowing for a quick front / side/ low kick counter. Stepping back and retreiving your front leg to your side as in a void stance, chopping down the attack kick, which would cross the attackers body permitting a prompt counter punch or kick strike. Stepping up in to single leg while hooking the attacker's knee kick upwards. Thus leaving multiple take down options resulting in mostly maiming apllications. Plenty of two persons to practice and answer just this question.

[baldmantiz]

8step has a number of kick blocks that position your legs in a manner that redirects the blow/evades/or just blocks

[flem]

pong lai

you cannot damage a knee supported properly by the other, especially if your timing is correct- moving into the attack. i have to add another reason to use this technique- to counter against those who believe they are like eggshells! moving to a single leg stance is an option a basic one, and also one that relies on your opponent reacting as you would like them to. one who renews their attack, feints the low kick, or uses the same or the other leg has a good chance of doing (real) damage to the leg you stand on. by moving into the attack you are not only completely safe knee-wise, you also disturb your opponent. as i said one leg stance is an option but it is basic or simple closing the knees is far superior- i think the problem you have may be related to never having been taught it, so it cannot possibly exist or maybe the fact that the attacks that coincide with it are not applicable to 2 person sets as instead of a simple counter your partner will be checking your sifu's bone-setting knowledge!

i have to add also that one must consider the opponent ie. grapplers love the single leg stance for instance

[chrisreed]

flem,

the patela is not as strong as you think. i think pong lai is way more capable of using techs, then you think. research what you are saying.also where do you live?

[Pong Lai]

Are you suggesting that a "knee support" is moving into a "yu Hwan Bo" stance? Trying to better understand what you mean by supporting the knee with the other. Placing the rear leg knee behind the or in back of the front knee? rear foot still remaining on the ground?

Even a basic move such as up and backwards onto a single leg, followed by a jumping roundhouse is pretty fast and powerful.
Practice the two person by aiming for below the knee, Bruised upper chins are better than popped knees.

[flem]

Chrisreed


patella- i am completely aware of the knees weakness and strengths, and that was a point that i bypassed. most practitioners think the knee kick is the all powerful tech, especially when it concerns larger opponents. but knee attacks are more difficult to pull off than most people think. take UFC 2 (i think) where keith hackney was being charged by the somo wrestler, he repeatedly applied strong low side kicks and all failed- why? because unless the joint is locked the is not vulnerable to astraight on attack. the exception is a stroke similar to a roundhouse kich that attacks the patella from the side- knocking it around the knee- but this requires that little or no weight be on the leg otherwise the ligament tension will hold it in place. the other option is a side attack- this of course depends on the relatve position of each practioner all of these and others are considered in the technique i mentioned the knees support one another by bracing against each other, the postures are performed with the thighs parallel to the ground(tightens patella attachments), and finally i have used this technique against full force blows. i don't question pong lai's ability to use technique i am only offering some, i thought it would be useful to those using this forum to exchange knowledge instead of insults-

i live at home- but my mind takes me wherever i want to be

[flem]

pong lai

i am not familiar with the term you used, but what i am suggesting is that both feet and knees are placed together, flat on the floor. if you draw a line across your knees and a straight line from you to your opponent then the knee line will be on a 45 degree angle (towards yourself), in other words you present the corner to your opponent so that they would have to adjust their position to apply an attack to the side of the joint. 18elders seems very familiar with WL perhaps he can demonstrate the techniques i mentioned?


i am not knocking the tried and true single leg stance, but am only suggesting an alternative, as you are probably aware two skilled opponents will usually not rush in but will instead remain outside and feel out their opponent, if a preference in defense is detected then they will capitalize on it- in this case if i fake a low kick and see your response of lifting the leg then amay fake another and slide in with a renewed attack on your supporting leg-this is just an example you may be faster-- or i may choose another follow up the point is if you show me the single leg stance and i come in next time expecting- using the technique i mentioned- i'm nailed

[chrisreed]

flem you mean gway ma, i think. i will show pong lai.

[flem]

where is everyone?
does everyone on this forum want it to be the jerry springer show?
i noticed that 66 people have viewed this post, are there only 2 mantis practioners interested in knee defense/attack? that cannot be, theres too many knee attacks in mantis
pong lai,
what happened to our discussion? did i suggest something you didn't already know, i noticed you replied to my later post to tainan- come on lets make this a vehicle of learning not advertisement!

[SaMantis]

Close -- it's actually bai ma (crushed horse stance). Looks funny and feels funny at first but it's actually quite stable.

When I first learned it I worried that it would be an impractical stance to move in and out of (I thought the stance "locked" the knees up) but have found that's not the case.

[Tainan Mantis]

Axe blade kick-fu ren jiao:
back leg kicks straight forward with foot turned to the outside.

Round kick:
swinging back leg around like a baseball bat.

Side kick:
You know the one.

When the opponent does the round kick I pull my leg up and try to let the impact spread across a large area of the body. That is because this kick is usually done to the thigh or ribs, niether of which are strong enough to withstand the sledgehammer like blow(on me anyway).

For the other 2 kicks to the knee I block with my knee. Which is to say that I just let my knee get kicked and then move in with my own fighting recipe.

I see that people were talking about how easily the knee breaks and what pressure it can withstand without being broken.
I, to, have an opinion.

Years ago Pong Lai and I used to practice the axe kick exercise where the defender lifts up their leg and then returns with an axe-kick of his own. This goes back and forth like a pendulum.
Well the sad truth is that Pong Lai, the spring chicken, is too fast for this old mare.
He may not be aware that I was often bleeding under my kung fu pants from those kicks of his. Although it never stopped me from the practice. So I think my knee wasn't damaged.

Also in sparring with others my lead knee has been kicked until the skin ripped and shredded, but that also didn't do anything to affect my knee ability.
The only thing that has hurt my knee is being kicked on the thigh or the tendons of the calf. And the damage or knee pain only came out 1 or 2 days later. I suppose this is becuase something -insert technical jargon- was pulled off to the side. A little massage and a few days later I'm good as new.

So my conclusion is that it is hard to hurt a semi experienced fighter with a kick to their knee. It may be possible, but I've never even heard it happening to a MA friend's friend.

On the contrary even a light kick to the groin will cause the opponent to lose concentration while a sledgehammer kick will put the fear of the lord into your opponents heart.

So forget the knee kicks and drop the bomb!

Beng bu:
3 groin kicks

lan jie:
4 groin strikes

Wah Lum forms are chuck full of them too.

lipi:
5 groin strikes

cha chuie:
the knee kick is to get a good angle to do a takedown while slamming your elbow into his face.

[flem]

samantis,
i did not mean bai ma, i am familiar with WL terms- the postures that i refer to do not have named stance- it is the movement repeated 3 times at the end of the first pass of second form.

basicly you are simply putting your feet together/sliding them apart(yes i know you lift the lead knee), in application a slight angle is used so that the opponent must adjust for a good attack


thankyou tainan mantis

there is more proof of what i said earlier about the knee's vulnerability- but it is not invincable- tainan you are either very lucky, very strong, have no sense of pain, or pong lai doesn't kick right! ha ha ha i'm just kidding pong lai-- but your injury does bring up a valid point-abrasion/blood probably means that the kicks you recieved "brushed" your knee instead of penetrating - actually if you think about it a knee kick really needs to be rather "pushy" in order to move the knee enough to hurt it from the side- and of course this does not apply to a locked joint

[18elders]

are you taliking about bai ma?
don't remember that being in the second run of 3rd form?

[18elders]

that clears it up, both knees and feet together with the knees bent.
not sure if i would like to do that to block but to each his own