Let's kick a dead horse

[jon]

"I disagree. I truly believe there are better methods, better styles and way. Now, a better way in the hands of a lessor man does not accomplish much. But take that die hard Hung Gar guy, Wing Chun Guy, S. Mantis guy pounding away at Iron Palm, and show him some inner Ba Gua, and watch the hell out -- that guy is going to tear it up. He can still be a S. Mantis guy, but it will be super charged with higher level principles.

This is my opinion, but I am so sure of it I would give it the FACT stamp of aproval."

The last sentence is a contradiction in terms but thats not the only thing wrong with this whole paragraph. Its also very insulting to all of us studying arts like HG, SPM and WC. Do you really not believe we have higher level principals to? Maybe you just either were not taught or didnt learn correctly.
Ive read a few of your posts and whilst your clearly a good student and very dedicated to both your art and your sifu there are a few things i would like to state.
I think its NEVER a good idea to publicly go on and on about how much better your sifu and school is than others. If your happy with what your learning thats great but you should not draw examples to other styles to state why you like it. This just leads to arguments, you cant know your methods are perfect and you cant say if there any better than anyone elses without having reached the pinacle of the other style. They can certainly work better for you, but to say that someone else is wrong becouse it didnt work in your experience is not wise.
Im honestly not surprised there are WC guys who are not happy with you, you openly bag there art. If you were beaten by a WC guy would you go learn WC?
Power is power, skill is skill, kung fu is kung fu.
Its not the method its not the person its the result.
Your way works best for you and allows you to feel things you couldnt feel in other arts.
I studied Xingyi which is an internal style and felt no experience with energy at all. Proberly mainly due to a low level sifu who im honestly not sure even understood chi himself. I now study Hung Ga often considered an external style and feel energy and chi flowing all the time. I also learn qigung and healing in my school ive many times experienced chi and seen the results of having it added to combat or healing. I do not take kindly to the implication that somehow im learning a lesser system. Should i state publicly that Xingyi is not internal becouse of my experience?
Just saying what works for one wont always work for the other. As long as the end result [learning to keep healthy and defend the self and loved ones] is the same who really cares how anyone got there or what exactly they name it?
Im not trying to pick a fight with you im just a little put out now at reading several posts by you which attempt to put down another art by name whilst upnoting your own, also by name. I dont think this is good charactor for someone claiming to be from a good school especialy when they name there sifu openly. Are you not a little worried someone may challenge out of your disrespect? Even if your sifu won do you think he would be happy with you?
Many paths lead to the same peak... So dont throw rocks at the others trying a different one.

[jon]

IMO
Good Hung Ga is a combination of both internal and external pricipals. The main problem is becouse the lower levels of Hung Ga are very external its often viewed in public as being a hard system. This view is not helped by the MANY hung ga practioners who are stiff as a board and act like there made of metal. These people cant use there art in combat beyond simply beating up the local thugs and give our art a bad name among higher level arts. There is a definate movement among better Hung Ga practioners to focus more on the internal aspects even in the starting forms. They tend to be in there but frequently misinterpreted. Hung Ga should also ime always supplemented with qigung and meditation. We are not contry to some beliefs just sitting in horse stance flexing our muscles.

My point with the xingyi comment was simply to say it would be very foolish of me to try and put down xingyi based on my past experience. I know now full well how powerfull some players are and would take nothing away from there art.

[Ford Prefect]

Yuxian,

"I drank what?!"

LOL! I wonder how many people know which movie that came from.

[shaolinboxer]

Real Genious

[Bak Mei]

I was trying to say my master's e-chuan was the best I have ever seen. He is the best at it because its his style.

What am I comparing it to, Frank Yee's Hung Gar, Milton Chin's S. Mantis, and the local NYC chinatown Wing Chun. I have a lot of respect for all of these styles. I trained hard at them. Frank Yee and Milton Chin were idols of mine, I mean, come on, the real deal all the way. Hardcore.

My OPINION does not and couldn't take anything away from such men. I say that I won't say my master is the best because who knows, maybe there is some immortal out there shooting chi balls, I don't know. I doubt it. I'll say this tough, my master is the best I have ever seen. I've only been at it for 23 years, but I have never seen anyone or anything half to what his methods are. I never thought masters truly exist until training wit him.

I won't mention it again. I will say this, Wing Chun, Hung Gar, Shotokan, Tae Kwon Do, BJJ, ANYONE, can say Ba Gua sucks, Hsing-I is terrible, this or that -- I DON'T CARE! I know what and how I'm training. That's all that matters. Everyone should feel the same way about their training, or they're in the wrong place. I could be training anywhere in the tri-state area. I go where I go because I think I'm going to the best. Where else would I go, the second best?

I think people are taking points that they find offensive or raise their own concerns and missing the big point that was being said, about having an OPEN MIND.

"I'm ****ed you said my style/teacher is inferior."

"Well then you'll never consider that maybe it is. Or not inferior but lacking, and the holes could be filled if you were not so proud to look."

[Bak Mei]

PS, that comment was not directed to anyone in particluar. And what I said about comparisons would probbaly be backed up the parties mentioned as well. I have a great respect when someone beats me -- that person must be training harder or smarter, mostv likely smarter. These people didnlt get to where they are without a similiar mindset. They apreciate good gung fu. And I apreciate them. I'd be no where without my hung gar, wing chun, AND ESPECIALLY S. Mantis training.

I can't say enough good things about S. Mantis, as I said in numerous posts here -- great style.

Best of luck to everyone and their training, may we all gather at the top of the mountain some day -- just that some paths are more direct then others. (come on, I still have to be me and speak my mind -- its the Web)

[rubthebuddha]

indeed, may we all gather at the top of the mountain, but you know **** well that when we get there, a little, old man with the cliché fu manchu is going to be up there, offer us some dim sum (rubthedimsum), then point left to an even higher mountain and tell us that we still have plenty more to climb.

[guohuen]

This is funny. You two are talking about my two favorite arts! Hongquan I practice and Xing yi Quan I admire on principle for it's purity and directness. Hong Quan I respect because it's the first Chinese art I learned and the one I kept after I gave up the other stuff. I also feel it is a complete system based on the five animals representing the five elements and utilizing the destruction cycle. I think they both reach the same point of the li leading the chi, but in theory Yi Chuan gets you there faster. What I like about Hong Quan is you have five animals to play with to keep you amused so your not so serious all the time.

Kick the dead horse and smells of death come out.

Your kung fu obviously works for you, Bak Mei. Not only that, nobody here thinks your kung fu sucks except for Ralek.

When it's all said and done, most of us legitimate martial artists (you included) will be practicing too much to even CARE about the "man or style" argument!

[Bak Mei]

Aint that the truth. I'm never satisfied, there always has to be more, no?

[Kristoffer]

[Ryu]

Don't hate Royce cuz of Ralek


There's so many better reasons to hate him!


JK,
Royce, in actuality, is probably one of the toughest guys you'll see in NHB... IMHO Everyone he ever fought was practically always bigger than he was.

Ryu

[red5angel]

Bak Mei, you an dI started off on the wrong foot, I wish to apologize. You seem like an intelligent person who is well meant, the problem is your delivery. You seem very confident in who you are and want you want out of MA. The problem is your critical of things you dont really appear to understand, and base them purely on what you have experienced. I dont mean this as an insult, but you need to have a wider view, a much more open ideal of the way things are. You also need to be more respectful about other peoples arts. We all do these things because we love them for whatever reason, whether its love of fighting, love of tradition, love of KF movies, whatever. Most of us do different arts, and those who do similar arts still do things differently. This can be a volitile subject and we still need to be respectful of each other.
You have made some broad, sweeping ,and very general statements about WC, and for whatever reason you are unimpressed with the art. Thats fine, but that doesnt mean it doesnt work. I studied Okinawan Karate for 5 years before getting into WC recently, and I found that WC has better principles, is more comfortable, and seems more 'right' to me. It doesnt make Karate any less, just not for me. I am not a big fan of TKD for my own personal reasons, but I will never tell anyone it sucks, or that it doesnt work, I know two young ladies who ake it work quite well. am I making any sense here?

[Bak Mei]

Red Angel, I agree with you and apologize if I offended you, and I can see how I did; again sorry.

I agree with the Okinawan reference as well. Isshin-Ryu was what I did my entire childhood, great style for basics, maybe could have been better if I stayed with it into manhood. Going from that into Hung Gar and Wing Chun was a real eye openor as I'm sure you know: you mean you can trap? And all that cool stuff.

I do base my view on my experience, because that's what I have. It's not that I think Wing Chun is bad, not at all, just that I don't think it is as good as made to be. That is, its not that its bad, its that, I stress, too me, lacks some aspects of mechanics, not principles. For example, I never learned the importance or curling my tail bone up. The difference between a spine with a curve which has a breaking point and a stright spine that acts like a spike driven into the ground result in two different results.

Maybe that point was lacking in my sifu;s knowledge, maybe it just wasn't revealed to me. But its a pretty basic point, not brain surgery, but one of those things you would never think of until someone shares it with you. There are a few things like that, which was lacking from MY wing chun experince, that I thought were crucial points left out. To me, an inch, or a little thing like that, makes a difference.

But, and this I guess was not made clear because to me it is simply implied, WE ARE ALL BROTHERS IN THE MARTIAL ARTS.

The mere fact that we are here sharing these things, you have a closer place in my heart than some of my distant family. For real. I respect fellow artists in pursuit of these things.

Well, it's that time, I'm out of here, going to go swimming and then get some grub.

Be well.
Ray

[red5angel]

Thanks for understanding what I was saying, I took the time to go back and read your post before I posted my last message and came to the conclusions I did. You have supported my belief that you are a sensible person and much smarter then you may appear at times on the forum but aren't we all!
Concerning WC, I have fallen in love with this art, because in my eyes it works very well (For me anyway ) but I have come to see some major issues with it, and most of it actually doesnt have to do with the art:

1.) WC is in a political mess, its was an MA superstar there for a short time in Hong Kong, for whatever reason, and a few people grabbed on to it and tried to make it thier own, for the wrong reasons. They have also been very outspoken about thier ways as well, which just compounds and confuses the issue.

2.) It has suffered the same thing that Karate and TKD has, in that it has been westernized to a great degree, we are only fortunate in that there are sitll many WC masters alive to keep its blood line pure for a little longer. It has become sort of the "belt Factory" of the chinese arts. Too may people out there claiming to be "authentic" Wing Chun people but arent. I may stir the pot a little here ubt in general, and that is a big in general, westerners are too impatient to learn things the long way, they want results now. They want to see big changes quickly. This tends to weaken ideals that come from cultures used to more patience. If you dont believe this, look around at the greates martial artist you know, or see, and ask yourself if they have taken the time to patiently learn what they fealt they needed to.

Having been to looking for a while for the right sifu, and coming across many that were and many that weren't. I have learned a valuable lesson in being choosy. Even then, the art may not have what I want. For instance, My karate Dojo, was excellent, it had a little of everything, some traditional material, a really good testing regimen, excellent staff and instructors. It was great! but the style itself just didnt suit me.