Does your sifu hold back knowledge from you?

[shaolinboxer]

"his rice bowl was invaded"

Ha! I have never heard that expression before but it is so true.

One art that is plagued by the competition cycle is TKD (I say this because a very close friend of mine is an ITF 2nd dan and we've discussed it). It' is a common problem that 2nd and third dans leave their intructors, having learned all they can, and open competing schools (invading their former instructors rice bowls).

So...perhaps holding back a bit is not just for physical self defense (although starving is pretty physical).

[hunt1]

BeiKongHui you assume Yip Man really cared.From all accounts he taught because he had to not because he wanted too.

[BeiKongHui]

No, I don't assume anything nor did I even begin to claim Yip actually cared about most of his students because it's no secret that he didn't. However, the statement still stands.

[Bak Mei]

One thing about my teacher, and he says it outright, he is always upgrading. It ****es off some of the seniors, because I guess theyw ant to be done with it already -- I like it.

But he won't show what's on the drawing board now. His master told him, and he tells us, never teach anything until you have worked it for at least 3 years -- to find out if its healthy from an internal standpoint ... and works, real well.

I respect that. At 60's he's still not satisfied. He recently showed me a tape of himself 10 years ago. It was good, compared to similiar tapes I've seen of other very well respected Sifu, it was better. But, inside, I was thinking, man, this is terrible compared to what he has now. Before I trained with him I would have looked at that tape and thought I was looking at a very high level, a great sifu. Training with him now, seeing the latest and greatest, its amazing.

He remarked how he didn't like the tape either. If he asked, I would have said, "Sifu, your technique is so much better now." He knows how much I respect him, or at least hope so, and hope he would have taken it as one martial artists to another, seeing and admiring the progress of ten years.

I can only imagine what he''ll be showing me in ten years. I'm looking forward to an indeoth study of the sword as well. I walked in on him and his two disciples Tuesday playing with swords. No joke. These guys are great. They play with swords the way most chi sau. Real swords. Though in this case they were fencing swords, pointy (easily take an eye or pierce) but not sharp except the tip. I;'ve seen him defend against a real katana though at real speed.

The good ones aren't worried about their students, its family. Or their reputation. My master is worried we are not good enough, that his tradition is "rich and famous", and doesn't want any of us kooks ruining it. We can't learn fast enough.

[David Jamieson]

I agree that Kung Fu belongs to no one, not you or your teacher, yet it can be possessed.

But only by those willing to put in the time to acquire it.

There are plenty of reasons why a teacher will not give a technique until the time is right. For one thing, your tendons, flexibility and strength needs to be developed before some techniques can be done without causing injury.

This, I wholly agree with. Walk before running so to speak.

Teachers who hold back out of a lack of trust, well, that's entirely up to them if that is what they want to do, then that is what they want to do.

Some people just simply don't deserve to have the time invested in them because of their own inability to understand or their unwillingness to practice.

If a teacher has to show someone the same tech again and again and again because the student does not practice, then that student doesn't deserve to move deeper and the teacher doesn't need to suffer the idiocy of the student. This is a major problem in many schools and I have had the displeasure to witness this myself. Usually, these students will fall away like the chaff of wheat because they do not have the consternation to open themselves to the lessons and to truly practice with all their heart and focus.

Also, remember that teachers are only human and have their own fears and personality defects as each of us do. Some teachers just don't like some students and withold information from them on that basis. Some students don't like their teachers and eventually leave them to find a new teacher that they are more compatible with.

Some teachers do get outstripped by their students and some students will never go beyond their teachers. This is really not that important overall. The real importance lies in the perpetuation of the art.

How long does it take to know who you will be open with as a teacher? 1 year? 2 years? 5 years? 10 years? How long before you're certain that you have a good student?

You can never be certain because people change. People change their whole life in the measure of a single day. Character changes in the space of one experience that could measure only a few minutes. That is life.

If you want an art to survive in fullness, then it is necessary to give it in wholeness and without reservation. If you take a student, then that should be enough to start them in their absorption of what you have to give. If you don't want to teach a student, then reject them from the get go and send them somewhere else.

peace

[Syre]

Who's the stingy taiwanese master you are talking about? Is it Master Shyun?

I am still wondering whether there are alternative sources of 8-step knowledge in the USA. I would hate to run up against a wall after 5 years of training.

[joedoe]

My sifu told me that he pushes us to reach higher and higher levels of kung fu, and at the same time that pushes him to do the same, so that he can explain to us what we are experiencing because he has experienced it himself. He also told me he doesn't teach a technique to someone unless he knows how to counter it .

[Richie]

Well, after I did Bai si, it seemed like my teachers openned a lot. I think it is more on trust then anything else. Thats why there are general students and close door students.

[GLW]

My teachers start out offering everything to every student.

Should the student prove to be of poor character, the teacher's time begins to be less and less for technique and more and more directed for that student at changing their character.

If they change, they continue....but usually, the requirement to change ones mind set ends up with them leaving on their own.

The things beyond the basics are taught as you grasp the ideas and as you show your personality.

I have heard my teachers tell an entire class the key movements in a routine...or how to use it, or any number of other 'secrets' in plain English and in Chinese.... and then watched as very exlpicit corrections were made...only to see the same mistakes and same questions be gone over again and again. To ears and eyes that are closed, nothing matters.

The teaching is very Confucian...For the student that you give one corner..and he gives you back one corner, do not waste your time...For the student that you give one corner and he deduces the square, ...teach this student.

This is the way of many teachers....so if you are not getting this...is it being withheld or is it that you have not shown yourself to be Chong Ming....clever..... Some DO hold back...some don't

One thing that I've learned from having teachers hold stuff from me in the past is how to "steal stuff" from them.

By this, I mean focusing intensely whenever they say or demonstrate anything since they probably won't show it again. A true master of martial arts cannot hide the essence of his art for long.

When I was in kwoons, I ****ed off seniors this way. They felt my eyes on them at all times, and I advanced quickly and smoothly. Whenever my teachers were to demonstrate their art, I'd always somehow end up the one being demonstrated on.


I'd be thrilled if my students grew up quickly under me and went to open their own schools.

As a teacher, I want my students to be at least as good as I am. I would not want somebody to see lame kung fu in one of my senior students and have them say "Look at Huang's student, obviously Huang can't teach".

If I were a student seeking to study at one of those schools, I'd eventually want to seek out the grandmaster and train directly under him. And the grandmaster would be ME.

The competition among schools would actually raise the standard of the kung fu and teaching practices. I'd do my best to fan friendly rivalries between the schools - and then have them all fight it out in a fair contest.

I would love nothing more to have this huge federation of people practicing my styles - with me at the VERY TOP because likely nobody else in this country does my style.

[TenTigers]

I'm willing to bet that some of my former students claim I held back technique. This is for two reasons. The way I teach, the technique, concepts, etc change as I grow, and develop, and refine my Gung-Fu-hopefully this will be a constant!;-)
Secondly, I teach in layers. I might teach a form to a beginner, only later to add a concept, which changes not only that particular form, but all preceding forms. Later still, another concept is added, again changing everything. So a student might compare the same form, and see things that they were never taught,worse, leave before learning any of the more advanced concepts and misjudging the teaching due to their own lack of patience, time and effort (Gung-Fu)
Okay, there is a third reason: sometimes a student feels that they are being held back because THEY want to be taught a certain way, or certain techniques. I won't get on my soapbox here, they basically know where the door is. Has anyone experienced this?

[dezhen2001]

some very good points on this thread. i really don't have much experience of this personally, as i've only been training a short time in CMA.

One thing i have noticed is that if people say the techniques have been 'held back' etc. - these are usually people who have had a disagreement or falling out with their teacher. The students who continue to train are content and deepen their skill...

Also maybe the technique is not held back, you just don't 'see' it yet. This has happened to me lots of times in chi sau for example. One of my Sihing has trained around 6 months longer than me, and the things he 'sees' during a demonstration of technique are sometimes not the same as what i see. Soi think the understanding of some skill or technique depends on your understanding so far...

As Bak Mei says, there is a world of difference between my Sifu and even my Sigong compared to videos i have seen of 10 years ago! As your experience and understanding grows, it will change the way you do things. Some people have studied with my teacher and left after a short time, thinking they have mastered some skill, but it is always changing and developing...i can't wait to see what will happen in the future!

thanks,
david