Does your sifu hold back knowledge from you?

Does your sifu hold back knowledge from you?


In China, my sifu's sifu trained a student for years before electing to show real knowledge. Because the training was all for free, my sifu's sifu could do as he pleased. It was my kung fu style's family tradition to withhold principles from the students until they proved themselves in the sifu's eyes.

However, my sifu thought it was detrimental to the quality of his kung fu. He's observed how students of his sifu (including himself for a while) ended up getting the wrong impression of the style and even hurt themselves (especially in the knees and ankles) as a result. So he's been very careful to tell me why I must do things a certain way in order to avoid injury and misinterpretation.

Of course, there are things that I'm not ready for yet and so I'm not jumping the gun to do them. But whenever I ask a question, I get a totally straight answer.


How about you guys?

[truewrestler]

when we roll he holds back his knowledge to give me a chance

[EARTH DRAGON]

Hung kai vun some one who knows what its like! I learned kung fu from a very stingy taiwanese master. It took him 5 years of turning me down just to learn from him and not from one of his students however his student was very good I wanted to learn from the master. Any time he is asked a question his answer in broken english is always ........ "later later you learn that later" well later never came. many impatient students quit becuse of his selfishness, but I realized why his did the sorting out thing, acutally still sorting after 10 or 11 years of learning from him. He still will change things from time to time to weed out the right people and then teach them the right things. This cannot be understood by most americans but i do understand why he does what he does but one thing I have a problem with is that how do you know what to weed out and what to keep?

[Bak Mei]

I've been training with my first Chinese sifu for 10 or 11 months now. I was a little nervous going in (to Chinatown, one of only 2 non-asians) but my fears were quickly dispelled. Sifu Chan Bong is a nice man, veryv friendly. My impression is he gives you what you deserve. If you train, show that you are not just coming to class but taking it home and pondering how it works, well, then you are ready for more. I have enough material now to last me years to master, yet it keeps coming.

The thing that is most impressive (to me) is how his well never runs dry. He does not teach form (an easy way to string people along) and yet each class my mind is blown away. Not just a new twist to a strike, but the principles. Man, I really value being under this man's instruction.

Though, at the same time I could understand how some sifu are reluctant. My teacher will turn someone away if they come with the wrong attitude.


Funny, a caucasion came not long ago, and started asking all these questions about my sifu's lineage. The thing is, his lineage is impeccable, straight to Ba Gua's founder, learning from his disciple -- lived with him. Similiar with HSing-I, but of coarse a bit longer down the line due to the system's age. But the kid wouldn't know any of this if he told him anyone, the names would mean nothing, so me sifu asked, "Do you want to learn from me, or them" referring to his teachers.

The kid didn't know what to think I guess and became a bit arrogant. The boot. There are those who also show up once or twice and doen't come back. There will always be those.

[fa_jing]

According to the 7* master of our kwoon, who grew up in China and trained in the most traditional way, graduating at the top of his kung fu class and appearing in some HK KF movies, he said
that you always keep 2 techniques to yourself. This is so the student does not kill the master and take over the school.
Sounded rather serious.
Supposedly Yip Man kept alot of WC back so that his students wouldn't open a competing school down the street.
-FJ

[old jong]

Imagine 10 generations doig this: keeping a few techniques for themselves in case students get good enough to beat the "master". What the hell will be left to teach?

[Radhnoti]

The secretive mindset is the reason my old karate instructor gave as the main reason he felt the Japanese martial arts were superior to the Chinese. He felt Japanese masters were more interested in having their students improve. He said it was simply a difference in the cultures...
I'd never heard this from another source 'til now.

[shaolinboxer]

You never really know.

I wouldn't say the Japanese are any less secretive then the Chinese (in general).

My advice on getting secret techniques out of old masters is to get them drunk. I'm not kidding.

[Crimson Phoenix]

But what if you study something other than a drunken style? Does it still work??
Anyway about that "keeping techniques" thingie, I heard/read many good teachers, mine included saying that they will be a failure as a teacher if their serious students do not eventually best them (I frankly have hard times imagining that happening, but that's what they say )
All I know is that my bagua sifu knows HELLA stuffs, and each tim he amazes m with some new stuffs he pulls out...I came to realize that he is a well of knowledge, but very seldom exposes it. The good thing is that the day he reveals a little thing to you, it feels like you've been given a treasure, and it makes you want to train harder to have what's next...

[Ralek..]

i'm not a kung-fu basher or anything ,but this kind of thing is silly.if a teacher wants to turn away a potential student because he thinks the student is irresponsible or an evil person then thats fine.but, holding back so called "deadly" or "higher" level secrets sucks.if you want to learn to defend yourself in real-life situations in a resonable amount of time why would anyone choose kung-fu in today's society??The secretive mindset is something that obviously comes from Chinese culture but doesn't work in America in the year 2002!who the hell wants dedicate themselves to an art and have to constantly wonder "am I learning the real thing?".
there are plenty of kung-fu schools that openly carry the motto "no scerets" and I think that's great.im not going to wait 10 years to learn the "real" stuff so I can actually use it to defend my life or loved ones if i really need it.thats nonsense.

[old jong]

There are really no secret techniques. You only need to train hard and use your brain. All the techniques are in the various forms (whatever the style!) I read somewhere that Bruce Lee was keeping the double lap from his students!...It's in the third form Biu Gee!(wing chun)
I feel it is a stupid and paranoïd way to act and a teacher doing that deserve to lose all his students.We are in the 21th century and there is so much infos on the internet and video courses everywhere that someone is surely putting out what the other is trying to hide!
The old tradition of licking deep in the @$$ for what you already are paying for is getting very near it's end!...(I hope!)

[Kristoffer]

Don't think I have trained long enough to tell. I'll come back in another 10 years
Dont seem like it though.

[Bak Mei]

Crimson Phoenix, I know EXACTLY how you feel. Ralek, I agree with you 100% as well.

My sifu stresses that the point of his e-chuan, is that it would be added to and refined by his students that truly understand the art in the first place. He has modified some of the Ba Gua he has learned to suit him, he is a smaller man by his own account, especially when compared to non-asians, same with his Hsing-I, looked to Taiji and Ba Gua and took out some unhealthy stuff that he saw. But he shows it all too us, saying, this is how I do it, but the "traditional" way is like this, just regarding foot position and stuff. He changed the first palm of circle walking to have the elbow down, more of a draw cut motion, utilizing more back and shhoulder. I have never learned it any other way, but its powerful, strong shape. It's the principle that counts, realising that keeping a strong shape for one motion is more important that 3 week motions or extending haphazardly.

[hunt1]

I can only comment on Wing Chun because that is all i know.I found this common among Wing Chun Sifu.The reasons are not important.The interesting thing is what one Sifu considers secret another will teach openly.I found this based on the 6 teachers I have had.Of course some also know more than others too.

As for Yip Man holding back.Many of his students did open schools .He did have a legitimate reason for holding back.His rice bowl was invaded.


Another side note some Sifu teach you more if you come from another less respected Sifu in the same system.As an example a famous WSL student had to start from the very beginning with WSL even though he had learned the entire system from Leung Ting.We are ll human and ego always plays a part.It can be a big help if you play it right.

[BeiKongHui]

The old tradition of licking deep in the @$$ for what you already are paying for is getting very near it's end!...(I hope!)

Of course there are well known lineages of Ving Tsun who claim that Biu Je, the dummy and weapons are "secrets" until you pay large extra sums of $ to become a special student. Soundz like a scam to me and a good reason why the quality of VT is currently so low.

As for Yip Man holding back.Many of his students did open schools .He did have a legitimate reason for holding back.His rice bowl was invaded.

Ving Tsun did not belong to Yip nor was his the only lineage or school in Hong Kong. Perhaps he should've worried less about the ol' rice bowl and more about consistency.