Board Breaking

[EARTH DRAGON]

No I am not saying you dont have a untrined eye or that you have not seen a true test of skill, so please do not put words in my mouth or take things so personally, for I am trying to help you understand, but my understanding and what impresses me may be different than what your understanding is. you see I have trained with 2 chinese masters for many years and they have taught me various things some of which I still after 20 years have a hard time understanding. my qigong teacher held up her hand and told me to shove a 9" steel wire through my leg muscle and that she would stop the pain with qigong, after my slight hesitation I slide it till it poped out of the other side and felt nothing. so agin some poeple dont understand what chi is or better yet dont know it exsists, so I say yours and mine understanding may be at 2 different levels.

if we are speaking of the same thing then why are you still breaking wood? why have you not graduated to concrete, bricks or coconuts? ask your sensei to break a coconut with the center of his palm not the heel, then I will respect your breaking technique.....

[Leonidas]

Heres a pic of a REAL Break, Would you want a slap in the head from that guy. It is possible to get that skilled but how would you know you've progressed if you didn't break a few cinderblocks now and then. Wouldn't you be ****ed after studying Iron plam for years and finding out that you couldn't break a brick which is a basic skill. I know i'd be ****ed to find that out in the middle of a fight. I guess it all depends on if your style trains that way, but dont say it's just showing off. it is cool but come on.

[Mr Nunchaku]

I'm not taking anything personally, sorry if I was putting words in your mouth, and you are only helping understand your OPINION. I will say you have a very good and educated opinion.

We do break concrete. I do not. I am on wood right now, due to my low level. But the higher ups do concrete. I just don't understand how you can't think it is skill. The first time I tried breaking a board, I couldn't. I hit it with all my strength and it still wouldn't break. Since then I am no stronger physically, but I can now break that same board. It is because of my technique.

[Mr Nunchaku]

And I thought the example of breaking the board with little effort would help you understand since it is exactly what you are talking about.

[EARTH DRAGON]

Agin I do not wish to fight nor argue but rather help you understand why wood breakers have such a bad rap.

Wood is brittle and snaps very easily, usually wood breakers line up th grain in the direction of the break, they also have to use spacers. These tricks as they are called have no real skill involved you see spacers provide the breaker with concussion therefore the space between causes the break not the person. just ask a guy your higher level fellow students to break a 2x4 it is the same thickness as 2 , 1" inch boards they cannot do it becuse spacers are the trick without them the trick connot be performed.

Dry pine is the easiest wood next to balsa to break. therefore not a hard feat at all, and usually done for demonstrations to non martial artists.or beginners

We are not talking about the same thing at all , A iron palm practioner takes up to one year conditioning his hand by striking sand , rice or iron. and uses Dit Dat Jow an anceint recipe of herbs used to condition the tissue in the hand and bones of the hand. Also we do series of breathing techniques to cultivate the chi in the dantien and practice moving the chi from the dantien to the center of the palm called the lao gung. Do you do this? no therfore your hand has not been properly trained to withstand the slap nor are you useing the proper technique to shoot the chi outward from the hand. You see a true break is done with the cneter of the palm not the heel part of the palm like that when breaking wood. I know that non iron palm breakers cannot understand how to break with out useing force and from the center of the palm only. ask your higher levels classmates about breaking from the center fo the palm they will not know what you are talking about.

I will say that I am speaking from a iron palm practioners veiw point, and I am not saying that your breaking is a joke for it does take eye- hand coordination, focus, and timming to break anything but realize that My point of veiw is taked from a guy who understands all about breaking and my impression of wood breakers is the same as a guy who punches a makiwara board with boxing gloves and says he hands are condtioned to be tough as rocks......

[Mr Nunchaku]

Just to be sure, we are not arguing but are just having a friendly debate.

We do not use spacers, I have never even seen someone use spacers except on TV. When we break 2 or 3 boards it is with no spacers.

As for conditioning the hand. The only injuries we get are when we make a mistake. We do condition our hands less compared to other arts, but we do hit makiwara barehanded. I will admit that we don't condition as much as iron palm but that is because we do not place such an emphasis on breaking.

You have ignored every example I have given of skill.

1. Mr. Oaks breaks three boards with no spacers with a simple jab. He barely used any strength at all. There are tons more examples of this. Mr O isn't even our highest isntructor.

2. I was not able to break a board before. Now that I have much better SKILL and technique I can. I have not gotten any stronger, it is a new learned skill. And my hand-eye coordiantion is no different.

3. We DO break concrete. But you start out with wood. But as you progress you break more and more boards at once with harder techniques to master. You eventually progress to concrete.

That is the second time I have posted those, but now they are together. Before you tell me anything else I wish for you to tell me how the above are NOT demonstrations of SKILL, and to please tell my how those do not require SKILL.

[shaolinboxer]

"my qigong teacher held up her hand and told me to shove a 9" steel wire through my leg muscle and that she would stop the pain with qigong, after my slight hesitation I slide it till it poped out of the other side and felt nothing. "

Fascinating. Hard to believe, but I have seen demonstrations like this. Who is your qigong teacher?

[Mr Nunchaku]

BTW, thanks guys for the breaking pictures. Those are real cool.

[jon]

Just to agree with Mr Nunchaku I spent four years in TKD and a year in Karate, in that time i did several demonstrations and breaks. We used proper non baked boards held by other students meaning if the break wasnt fast the impact was abosorbed by the holder of the board. We also NEVER used spacers EVER.
My old TKD black belt requirement was to break two boards of an inch thick each held together with nearly every major technique from kicks to punches to knifehands. Ive also seen someone punch though two bricks without spacers.
Wood is not as high level as some other things but its where you start. It is traditional and the monks used to test there breaking on wood before moving on to my knowledge as well. Its all in how you do it.
Some choose to do showy demonstrations using baked boards stacked upon the ground using spacers. This is clearly much easyer than doing a strait punch though two one inch thick pine boards held at sholder level by another student.
Its all in the school, some do it the stupid pointless way. Some take the time to learn the way to do it properly and dont take shortcuts.

P.S i regard many breaks you see on tv and in pictures as being not so much fake as easy. So i can see why people come to this conclusion.
Breaks where the object is on the ground are MUCH easyer then when its held. If the object is on the ground you simply drop you whole body wieght into the break. Not hard to break 5 boards with spacers when your dropping 70-80 kilograms onto them.
Doing the same thing with the boards held together as in the above example. I challenge anyone to tell me they could do that with ease.

[jon]

The Korean Tigers break apples... They are that hard


The apple is unfortunatly resting on the end of a sword held at sholder level by one student who is standing on the sholders of another who is standing on a chair.
Would that be an 'easy' break? Would this classify as martial skill?
Will we all sit here thinking how pointless it is without ever thinking of the possibiltys.
lol these are guys who can walk into a room jump 12 feet into the air kick out the lightbulb then land standing Kinda freaks me out. Just try to imagine what they can do with that kind of ablity and accuracy.

[Mr Nunchaku]

Thank you, Jon for two reasons. One reason is your post. The other is what you made me realize about downward breaks. I had no clue what I was doing wrong. At home I would get boards and put them on two chairs with empty space underneath them. No matter what I tried, breathing exercises, focus, keeping my mind clear, yelling, I could not break it. Now I realize the reason everybody else can do it is because they are putting their whole body weight into it while I sitting down can only put my shoulder and down into it.

I guess I should have explained earlier how our school does board breaking...

Until I came to this board I had never heard of baking the boards to make them more brittle. We do not do that. Our boards come straight from Home Depot or Lowe's (hardware store).

Like I said we do not use spacers, I have never even seen someone use spacers except on TV.

The board is held by two people who get into the most solid stance they can. Still though, when you strike the board it moves away from you.

At first you break one board with a hand and foot technique. You progress to two with a hand and foot technique (the instructor always tells you what technique he wants you to do). Later three even four boards held together.

My instructor broke 8 boards with a side kick. We use this device that you place the boards into and you lift the whole thing up and two people hold it so that the boards can be hit with a horizontal strike such as the side kick. The higher ups break concrete.

Another instructor, not the highest, broke through 5 concrete slabs with an axe kick. Again no spacers.

The break I explained done by Mr Oaks was three boards held together, but by only one board holder. Mr O simply pops it with his knuckle. He is average strength and did not hurt his hand. It was a piece of cake to him.

One instructor held the board above his head with both his hands. Another walked up to him, spun, jumped, and round kicked the board. Half of it went flying the other half remained in the holder's hands.

Then I told you the one about three boards simply standing by balance. He knife hands through them and breaks them all.

Do these things and I know that you are skilled, in this one particular area of the martial arts.

[jon]

"Do these things and I know that you are skilled, in this one particular area of the martial arts."

Not to mention a natural enemy to building supplies
Seriously though those breaks you discribe are very much authentic breaks and I would venture to say you have some VERY good teachers. If they can break "My instructor broke 8 boards with a side kick." Imagine what must happen if it makes contact with someones ribcage?
Just a thought...
Ahh poor old TKD will they never learn, still stuck in the dark ages with such arcane skills as massive power generation and brilliant body dynamics

[Mr Nunchaku]

lol

Again, sorry if it sounds like I am boasting (which is what I'm doing). But I really do think they are awesome and though they don't do these things on TV like the guys you see on ESPN, I think they should get recognized more.

[jon]

There is nothing wrong with being proud of what you study and your instructors who got you to the skill level you have gained.
Infact i admire it and believe it shows respect.
I for one would actualy be very interested in exactly who your intructor is and where they train? They sound very talented and if anyone else here is looking for a good TKD intructor you may well be doing them a favor.
Would you care to list your instructor and where you train?
If not i can totaly understand, it is a bit public but still you may be doing a service

[EARTH DRAGON]

I will answer your questions if you will extend the same courtesy towards me OK?
1. Mr. Oaks breaks three boards with no spacers with a simple jab. He barely used any strength at all. There are tons more examples of this. Mr O isn't even our highest isntructor.

ask him to break a 2x4.. it is 1' inch thinner it should be easier, or break just the middle board this is called selcetive breaking, in which chi is used to pass through the first board and break the 2nd and pull it out beofre you break the 3rd.......

2. I was not able to break a board before. Now that I have much better SKILL and technique I can. I have not gotten any stronger, it is a new learned skill. And my hand-eye coordiantion is no different.

its called practice, if you do anything many times you would have to get better! even if it is trial and error causing you do try it again until you can but I bet its practice..... or as jon taught you body weight distribution

3. We DO break concrete. But you start out with wood. But as you progress you break more and more boards at once with harder techniques to master. You eventually progress to concrete.

agreed, we skip past wood but you have to improve with practice and your goals become higher or harder in this matter.


OK now for my questions
1. ask mr Oaks or your highest breaker to perform selected breaking as described above, or break a coconut....

2. ask them to perform a turn/slap break where you place the back of your hand on the board and without letting the fingertips leave the surface pull your hand towards you and turn your palm over and slap the board and break it with the center of the palm.. these are skiled breaks and extremly hard to perform and after you see the results you woill understand where I am comming form..... your freind E.D