"Reality" training

[red5angel]

Lately, the popular movement towards martial training has been towards so-called "reality training" in which you train only in tecnigues which have been "obviously proven" in sport matches or in various supposed encounters in the real world. Many of these schools peel away all the traditional stuff and stick to "no-nonsense" sparring, and drilling, etc...
I was thinking about this seriously on my way to wing chun last night, and thought back to a semi amusing anecdote, for all of those who remember the karate kid movies, especially the original.
I took a few years of Karate in high school, specifically, Shorin Ryu Ryu Kyu Karate. It was a good school, the instructors really knew what they were talkinga bout, gave us not only the techniques and katas, but also the background and history. They instilled in us a respect for each other, and other people around us. We wore your typical white Gis, no one got to ear any other colors or patches unless they won a patch at a tourney, they had earned it then.
In steps our antagonist, Den of the Wolf! A Kobra Kai like dojo, in which the instructors were tough, even mean at times. Taught no nonsense reality based combat before it was popular. They drove thier students almost ruthlessly (We saw this not only at tourneys but we had a few converts among us.). It was strange the way our schools clashed, they even wore black gis with a big red wolfs head on the back!
Anyway, We met a lot at local tourneys, and they sort of became our rivals. They were always talking smack, in town and around school, those that went to the same school some friends of mine and I went to. Talking about how our classical training was weak and how they were much tougher than we were. Well, they never shut up, even though, when we went to tourneys, I didnt get to fight so much as do my katas in competition, you had to be at a certain level before you could get in and mix it up at my school. We crushed those guys time and again! They had one guy, who was a black belt, and who was a big neanderthal type, real solidly built, you could probably beat him with an iron rod and he wouldnt notice. he won all of his matches, and even though we were consistantly beating them, they always pointed at him as the pinnacle of thier training! Our instructor always pointed out thta unless they were training to gene splice it just wasnt going to happen.
Whats my point, that maybe, just maybe, that classical mess has something behind it? That maybe "reality" training isnt all its cracked up to be?
Who knows, I am a proponent of the idea that sometimes it is the person instead of the art, like an F-15, the plane doesnt drive itself, it needs a pilot,m and some pilots are good, and some arent, the plane has guages and levers to help compensate for some lack of skil or ability, but still.
I am also a proponent that you get what you take from your training. If you work hard, train hard, and try as hard as you can to understand, that may just give you the edge you need.

[Ray Pina]

I admit I only read the first few sentences because I'm mad busty at work today.

I'll say this,"so called reality training" is traditional. Back in the day sifus did not string out their students with colored sashes, it was all about learning what worked.

I believe with time more people became sifu without understanding their art and so enphasized forms and the techniques in those forms.

One can learn the real deal and still have a sifu who is a good man -- I know I am.

I do not want to learn the "The snake steals the peach from the dragons cave" or "The monkey stratched his balls". I want to learn how to enter a good right cross followed by an uppercut.

Don;t get my wrong, I love the TRaditional, I used to Lion Dance every New Year, I'm learning the pole and sword, I walk the circle the whole nine, but this is part of my training. My sifu will show me a section of Hsing-I or Taiji, tell me its name for name sake, and then right to making it work. That's why we are both there: for him to show me how to make it work and me to learn it. What else is there as a MA?

Traditional works! I argue that modern is a wannabee traditional look with no substance.

[red5angel]

Sounds like you Train traditional? I think the intention was that you taght a student the forms, or the technique, with fluffy name to help describe its principle, then you went on to its real world useage. I think that is the best way to train. I do feel that modern, quick and easy methods to fighting have no depth. I like to compare it to something we say in my school, with strength (in Wing Chun) you can improve gain skill quickly but will top out faster. With suppleness and skill you will always grow.

[scotty1]

Cool story. I don't think a "reality fighting" trained fighter would have the edge, as long as the traditionalist has some element of reality training in his curriculum.
Think about this:

So called "reality training" is about training what works, yeah?
its traditional, but stripped down.

But the traditional still has that within it, its just that a lot of places don't train that part of it. But a good traditional training method will have that "reality training" plus all the extra stuff.

Which can only be a good thing.

I think its all about priorities in training.

[red5angel]

I agree scotty1, I think 'good' traditional training will allow you to use it in atleast a semirealistic training. Training of anytype cant be reality, reality is getting jumped on the street and having to fight for your life. If I get into a fight with someone I know, for sparring say, even bare fisted or what have you, we are sparring, my life is in relative safe keeping. When an unknown jumps me in the street, I have no idea of their intention, so I have to fight as if they want to take my life. If you want to take the purest sense of reality training, go out into the street, and fight. Not that I would condone such a thing!
Really, I study Wing Chun, and for all the bad mouthing it gets, our school is training us to be fighters, thats the idea, we arent training specifically for health or for self-defense, but to fight, and to be effective. Although I havent yet, we spar, we do SLT, and chi sau, and we discuss techniques. All of these things come together to make a whole. Without each aspect, I believe you are an incomplete fighter.

[Ray Pina]

I agree with you red5angel.

Nothing like the street. The closest I find is putting on gead gear and gloves and going at it full tilt but breaking very early, once it is clear who has gained the advanatge. I'll even go so far as to put on shin guars and elbow pads. I used tos coof at such gear when I studied Karate as a kid, but now that I am fighting with grown men 200lbs+ there is no other way -- who can afford that many plays?

Keep training, sounds like you're on the right path.

[LEGEND]

NHB/MMA = Is not reality training. Traditional training = is not reality training.

Reality training are advocated by scenario type training...u ever see COPs and how they drill taken down and arresting a person??? Or have u seen Prison Guards in RIOT situations...that's reality training. Reality training deals with more or so the situation and it's enviornment...the psychological impact of being approached and threatened...and certain what if scenarios. NHB/MMA and traditional training can give u the TOOLs...the kicks the elbows the grappling etc...but REALITY TRAINING teaches u to apply it! Do research with guys like TONY BLAUER, Sammy Franco and well know bouncers...they'll tell u about reality training.

[red5angel]

I agree LEGEND, that is what reality training truly is. I was in the marine corps, I understand what the diofference between trianing fro real life and just developing the tools are. My point is that some people claim to be providnig or training for reality training. This is part of the problem.
Some in the MA world have taking the term and turned it into something else, even the NHB/MMA guys often claim to do realistic training, those two often get confused.