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Thread: Original Mantis forms

  1. #31

    tainan

    I also was lucky enough to see a form called Saint hands in WL. My shr-fu at the time asked master chan about it and he just walked away from him.
    Could you asked your friend (chan wan ching's senior kung fu bro.) if he knows about it?
    I had it on tape but unfortunately i taped over it.

  2. #32
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    18 Elders

    I`ve heard you speak of this Saint Hands form in WL before, can you remember the movement, and how did it start out?
    It will be interesting to see what Tainan comes up with. He has good info.

    Have you noticed forms taught years ago were more complexed and seemed to have basically alot more stuff? I had heard, they were making it where it was more obtainable, that the forms were just plain too difficult for the regular smuck. I am referring to Wah Lum material. I do not agree with watering down such a nice style, you should reward your Shrfus!with the advanced (way) and later on share when the student can get it. But, bottom line, what good is it if you are not TAUGHT the applications. Thanks to my Shrfu now, I am able to see some good apps. in WL and the numerous ways of applying. My Shrfu teaches me real Mantis Gong Fu, this in turn helps me with my old WL stuff, cuz you know and I know it`s all about application!
    Spoon fed and Love it!

    TRAIN HARD OR GO HOME!

  3. #33
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    yu shan

    it is interesting that you guys who didn't learn application all seem to be together, wonder why?

  4. #34
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    18 Elders

    Saint Hands is a.k.a. So Lo Sow. Hopefully Tianan can shed some light on this almost mythical form.

    yu shan- I agree. It does seem that the more recent forms are watered down, or at least earier to perform. I think it just may be good business to do so. You're right, the average schmuck can't do the advanced forms properly.

    There's a guy who was at the tournament 2000, I think his name is Pham or something like that. He won in youth division. (Pham, if you are reading this and my information is incorrect, I apologize). He's a breath of fresh air-lots of skill, even more potential. He is the only one that I've seen lately who could pull off some of the old forms.
    "Do not follow in the footsteps of the men of old, seek what they sought"

  5. #35
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    Wah Lum Forms

    My friend is a disciple of Wong K. Wing who studied with Lee Kwan Shan for 15 years. Master Wong was sihing to CWC as well as head instructor at Canton Wah Lum branch as I mentioned before.
    According to him there were only 12 forms and drills for 2 people.

    Out of respect for my friend I will not mention his name without his permission.

    I have a list of the names of the forms. They are transliterated form Cantonese and so I don't recognize all the names.
    I will list them here and you can show them to someone who is versed in Cantonese. Or maybe Mantis108 can help.

    Names I know(Cantonese-Mandarin)

    1.bung bo -beng bu AKA big mantis
    2.lan jeet -lan jie
    3.baht zhao -ba zhou
    4.tam toy -tan tuei
    5.lin wahn jurng -lien huan zhang? (continuous palms)
    6.teet bay sow -tieh men suan- iron door bolt AKA little mantis
    7.dai fan che -da fan che
    8.yat lo lin wahn tam toy -yi lu lien huan tan tuei- first route continuous tan tuei
    9.yee lo""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""second route""""""""""""""""""
    10.saam lo""""""""""""""""""""""third route""""""""""""""""""""

    I don't know the following:

    11.yau ling kuen
    12.yin ji chuen lum

    Some of these forms are technically advanced with difficult kicks and splits.

    According to Ilya Profatilov's article Jiang Hwa Long only tuaght the first 3 forms when he was younger. As he became older he removed those forms. They are also in TJPM.
    But, da fan che form comes from Li Kun Shan's uncle. It was passed on to :
    -8 Step
    -7*
    -plum flower and
    -Wah Lum

    This seems to indicate that:

    1. Lee Kwan Shan's teacher learned from Jiang Hwa Long in his early days. When Da Fan Che was added, but before the first 3 forms were removed.

    2. Lee Kwan Shan had another unnamed teacher who taught some of these forms to him. For example; Abbot Ching Yeung could have learned from some PM teacher the first 3 or maybe 2 forms and the Lee learned another 1 or 2 from someone else.

    Solution:
    compare the first 3 WL forms and Da Fan Che with versions in other styles. This would be a huge step in finding out who the Abbot learned from.

    Also, #4 Tam Toy is taught different ways by dfferent schools. Seeing this form in WL(10 routes) could also help to unravel some more history.

  6. #36
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    Hua Lin:

    If Big Mantis is Beng bu. AND Beng bu is a basic set and taught early in praying manits systems, how come it takes so long before one learns it in WL? I'm interested to know.
    Thanks for the help.
    "Grow through Pain." - Tainan Mantis

  7. #37
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    Tainan:

    #11 Yau ling - I have heard that this form is called "Soft Flexible Fist."
    Not many people know it.
    "Grow through Pain." - Tainan Mantis

  8. #38
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    beng bu and ro ling

    Joe Mantis,
    I believe that beng bu is only called a basic set in modern times since it is the first or one of the first sets taught. Also the WL version is more difficult than 7* and TJPM version.
    Strange, the 7* lan jie is much easier or more basic looking than beng bu.

    Sometimes I think this is a shame that beng bu is called basic since it causes students to think of beng bu as something for beginners(it is my all time fave), not realizing that Wang Lang put the essence of PM in this set as he understood it at the time. As opposed to him thinking,"first I'll invent an easy set for beginners to practice."

    I remember you have done PM for 9 years right? You must have seen some people take beng bu, which looks great when done by your teacher and just mangle it up.
    Although it is easier than some other forms I think it can be an advanced set if students look at it as such.

    One of my GM who my shr fu said was one of the best out of 30, named Luan Hsing Fu, had an interesting way of teaching.
    When someone knocked on his door to learn kung fu he would teach them the horse stance. The student had to sit like that for the whole class while GM Luan went to watch TV.
    Nobody I knew in the states would pay money for this.

    Ro Ling:
    Soft agile fist. I haven't learned it but my kung fu brother often performed it. I also wondered if that is the set from the WL 12. But WL is heavy on kicks and that form has not a single kick.

    The form Dwo Gang as my teacher learned it is meant to be done together with ro ling. In other words he said they are a pair.
    I don't know if your teacher said that, but don't they look like they go together?

    Also, in other PM teachers forms they say dzo gang and yo ling. Which means left rigid and right agile. So I wonder if these forms have also gone thruogh some name changes?

  9. #39
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    11.yau ling kuen - Soft/flexible agile fist
    12.yin ji chuen lum - Swallow (flies) throught the forrest.

    #11 seems to be in 7* already

    #12 I have a strange feeling that I might have heard it mentioned as 7* form but I am more inclined to think it is a Changquan Tanglang form. But then I could be way off here.

    Speaking of pairs in PM forms. I think that Jit Gun in TJPM is sort of pair with Bung Bo mainly because there are similar techniques plus kind of an expansion of them . Also if the old Plam Blossom name is indeed Beng Pu (crash and fill in) , then Jit Gun (swiftly followed) will make a lot of sense as pairing with Beng Pu.

    Mantis108
    Contraria Sunt Complementa

    對敵交手歌訣

    凡立勢不可站定。凡交手須是要走。千着萬着﹐走為上着﹐進為高着﹐閃賺騰挪為
    妙着。


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  10. #40
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    Jack Squat

    I was fortunate to have this "Pham" kid in my ring twice! Of course I scored him favorably He reminded me of a Si-Hing(Cantonese) I had in WL named Shrfu D Wong who to me is a true champion. You wonder WL practioners, why is he gone?
    Thank you for the kudos on the "watering down" of WL. Some of the old stuff was amazing. Don`t you think P. Chan needs to pull out the stops, and properly propagate the American version of Wah Lum? As for good business, what`s next, a friggen belt ranking system?

    Tainan Mantis

    My first WL Shrfu used to get us in horse stance (flat out) and go off and stir fry or go to the 7-11 for coffee, sixty minutes later he would return and begin class. I payed money for this knowing that to reach the sweetness of Gong-Fu you have to taste the bitterness. Xia Xia for all the great insight that you provide.Da Fan Che, is this the same as Fan Cha?

    Flem

    Application Brothers we are together in heart united in Strength. All kidding aside, when you are strung along in WL for years with the perpetual carrot dangling in front of you, well what has happened to all the Greats? They realized the false euphoria and moved on to bigger and better.

    Joe Mantis

    What`s with the mystic of the Big Mantis form in WL ? Heck, 2 and 3 form will give you a **** of a good work-out if done properly. I respect Tainan, but I think he`s wrong about the comparison of 7* Beng Bu and American WL Big Mantis.To me,Beng Bu has a few more intricacies.

    Mantis 108

    Thank you also for your quality insight. I saw Yao Li do Swallow flies thru the forest back in the 70`s at least that is what he called it.

  11. #41
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    yu shan

    what is your definition of bigger and better? also, are you one of these greats? what made them great?

  12. #42
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    Flem

    Sorry, I should not have put it as bigger and better, just going down a differant road.
    And I`m by no means one of the Greats. I`m just trying to make my mark, you know? To influence others to the MA and applying to their everyday lives. Let`s face it, MA`st are a cut above.
    As for what made (them) great, friggen Character! You got it so does 18 Elders, Mantis 108 Jack Squat Tainan Sa Mantis Hua Lin etc. We are all in this together! I appreciate everyones quality input.

  13. #43
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    yu shan

    i appreciate that. then we should have some posts outside the application thing. i do not agree that apps are everything as you said before, only a small part, a bi-product if you will.

  14. #44
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    Peach cobbler for Yu Shan

    My first WL sifu baked peach cobbler and sat in a soft chair eating it while we squatted in horse stance. I'll bet he was waiting for someone to make a comment on the irony, but we just kept squatting.

    I used to walk with him to 7-11 where he would fill big gulp cups with coffee.
    I wonder if we had the same teacher?
    Did I meet you in Tampa about 1990?

    Mantis108,
    For #12 I believe you are thinking of Hsiao Hu Yen. Little tiger sparrow. There are 3 forms in this series.
    I believe the name comes from a quote from Kung Ming in battle of the three kingdoms.

  15. #45
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    Tainan Mantis or Mantis 108

    Have you seen Yau Ling Kuen or any version before?
    If so I'd be interested to know what it's like?

    Also, by "pairing of forms" do you mean that one side is the counter to the other? or With these forms one can do a two person set with them?

    thanks!
    "Grow through Pain." - Tainan Mantis

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