Original Mantis forms

[Tainan Mantis]

The form looks similar to Dwo Gang. At 32 moves it is about the same length. It has 1 kick. The moves for the most part are all in other forms of 7*, just arranged differently.
It goes well not only with Dwo Gang , but also 18 elders, cha chuei and beng bu.

2 man forms
"...one side is the counter to the other?"
I don't think I follow. Do you mean that the first route is the counter to the second route?
If that is your question, the answer is, sometimes.
Most forms arranged this way don't perform nicely as a solo form. The only exception that I know of is san tsai jian. A famous straight sword form.

There are several empty hand forms that follow this logic too.
-chu ji chuen
-zhong ji chuen
-shaolin 18 movement stick

I'm sure there are more.

But I think that it isn't a good way to arrange the forms as you would have to spend half the form backing up. So the sword form is good because of the circular walking.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

yu shan
How's it going up there? Hopefully I'll be getting back up into those TN mountains soon. Leroy's new school Grand Opening is coming up. Hey, at my age I'll be looking for a nap long before the halfway point of 5th Form "My Shrfu teaches me real Mantis Gong Fu, this in turn helps me with my old WL stuff" - you're not saying that Wah Lum isn't "real" are you? "I`m new here, so try not to bash me right off. I respect everyone" - it would be easier if you didn't post veiled insults. Oh, and I do know why DW is gone from WL.

18Elders
I'm digging, give me some time. I believe the other 2 forms are there but held very close.

Flem
"it is interesting that you guys who didn't learn application all seem to be together" I think they were all together before leaving Wah Lum. It's possible AD is the common denominator and his separation probably contributed to their problems. What I wonder is didn't they get apps under AD? It's my understanding that he knows his stuff.

Jack Squat
"Saint Hands is a.k.a. So Lo Sow" - Is this certain or just a guess? Are you in or out (fo Wah Lum) or don't want to say?

Tainan Mantis
Once again you're a wealth of knowledge. Whatever I find out that I'm allowed to share will hopefully fill in some of the areas in question. And you and Yu Shan did have the same teacher. I heard stories like that from multiple people but always talking about the same teacher, AD.

Joe Mantis
Just a guess but it seems to me that the lower level forms are Wah Lum (meaning a mix). This is the public Wah Lum, the stuff anyone can sign up and learn. The pure forms (Tom Toy and Jut Sow) are at the high levels and you have to survive the lower levels to get them. I've heard from ex-Wah Lum people that they thought that too but now believe nobody ever gets there. They base this on the fact that they never got there and don't know anyone who did. I'll bet that anyone who actually got there isn't going to tell you they did so I still believe it's possible. If other systems are structured different and teach Bung Bo at a lower level then great. If you know Lan Jeet, open a school and teach it as the first form when everyone else teaches it as advanced then fine. Others have a progression and, for whatever reasons, put forms on differing levels. We have a lot of students that know Lan Jeet yet are nowhere near Bung Bo in the curriculum.

[Joe Mantis]

Tainan

I'm familiar with Chu ji Chuen. I understand that the 1st route counters the 2nd etc.

How about entire forms? When you say a form "goes nicely with (another form)" does this mean that the two forms are counters or can be combined for a two person set?

Thanks again.

[flem]

hua li laoshi

AD knows his stuff, there is no doubt about that. i cannot see him as the common denominator for several reasons. 1st that doesn't explain leroy or the guy in pasco co., they were both from AD. 2nd, the above were in WL long after AD left. 3rd, i think AD left for other, unrelated reasons, perhaps along the lines of DW!

yu shan

you said that it is character that is common to those who left WL. what do you define as character? hiding behind mundane questions that are worded to imply that WL shafted you, and that those who have and are still in it are getting ripped off, or no, i am sorry, not getting the whole enchilada.
as i implied before, it's a good thing wong long didn't have your spoon feed me mentality or Pm wouldn't exist at all.

[18elders]

AD got kicked out by master chan, i was there the day he did it.
It wasn't along the same lines as DW. He was given many chances but he blew it although i think he wanted to leave anyway.

AD knows his stuff, he is a good MA, we have talked about apps and he also did not learn many from CP. He has brought Li en jiu over a few times to try and learn from him. He has also learned a bit from Master Shr.

Flem- the guy in Pasco is Bruce cohen , we all came from the same school.

[mantis108]

Hi Yu Shan,

Thank you.

Tainan Mantis,

"For #12 I believe you are thinking of Hsiao Hu Yen. Little tiger sparrow. There are 3 forms in this series.
I believe the name comes from a quote from Kung Ming in battle of the three kingdoms."

This is very interesting. The 3 forms' (Hsiao Hu Yen and ...?) names are from a quote? Would you happen to know which one? I have copy of Romance of the 3 Kingdoms. Love to find out, thanks. BTW, IMHO Hsiao Hu Yen (Tiger roars swallow which I have seen a version of it) seems to be in 7* as Sui Fu Ngan (Small Tiger Goose?) . Knowing the Chinese alway have mixed up names with different accents, what would your take on this?

Mantis108

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

And Bruce, Leroy and Terry Bryant are the only ones left in WL that came from there. All I was pointing out was the small circle of friends/KF brothers centered around AD. Yu Shan, Pong Lai, Tainan Mantis, 18 Elders. Flem thought it strange that you all came from WL and ended up together but like I said, you all have a common point. I'm not trying to make anything out of it.

Joe Mantis
I had similar thoughts recently about forms complimenting each other such as one being the the other half of another. I haven't heard of anyone having a concrete example of this though.

[Joe Mantis]

Hua Lin:

Do you know or find out if Lan Jeet called Lan Jeet in WL or is there another name?
Like Big Mantis is called for Beng bu. Thanks
The form Chu ji chuen is an example that Tainan gave and its the only one of which I am familar. (about forms complimenting each other).

p.s. I too have heard of Saint hands as So Low Sow, never seen it though.

[flem]

18elders

i think getting kicked out of WL is similar to the c.i.a.- no one "quits" the latter.

[yu shan]

Hua Lin

Mountain`s are too cold right now buddy. I hope Leroy`s Opening will be a Great succes He is a breath of fresh air for WL. And that`s a compliment OK.
Wah Lum is REAL, I will always hold it in high regards.
I will try to come across in a LiL more tactful way.

Flem

My man, you sound very hostile today, you cut to the bone. peace

[Tainan Mantis]

Joe Mantis,

"This form goes nicely with that form..."
I'll give an extreme example of the opposite.

This form doesn't go nicely with that form.
Some schools have a strange mix of styles which they say is good for making a well rounded MArtist.
The strangest example would be a Tang So Do school that teaches Taiji.
After working so hard to get the Tang So Do power and flavor in your exercises the teacher says," Now we must balance the hard with the soft. So here is our Taiji form..."

If all the different styles have a certain way to do things and yet you learn several in 5-10 years time how can you be expected to master any of them?
I can't, although some say it can be done. I'll leave that debate for others.

When 2 forms go together well I mean that they are composed of the very same theory, style and power generation.

So if you learn the complete set of cha chuei one and 2 person. As soon as you learn 18 elders you'll feel this is a good fit or a compliment to the knowledge. You would have a different feeling if after learning cha chuei your teacher said," And now we will learn bagua so that you can walk in circles."

By researching styles from Ching or Ming dynasty we find that each style had its own flavor. So the 3 PM forms make a good system. Later other forms were added that are similar in style, such as dzai yao.

Baji's 3-4 forms are all similar in style.

10-12 routes of tan tuei

10 forms of cha chuen

3 forms of tong bei

Chu ji chuen combines eagle claw, PM and baji. The techniques taken from each style combine well together. This form makes it possile to get a good understanding of how TCMA are taught in a very short period.
-solo form
-partner form
-3 drills of 8 techniques make it a 24 movement form
-Martial sonnet. 2 syllables to be shouted out by each person for every technique as they do partner.

Mantis108,

tiger swallow forms come in small medium and large. All different, but similar in style. They are a melding of long fist and PM.
This is actually a new name for them although I haven't found who created these last 2 forms. The first one was taught at the big MA school in China before WW2. I think it was Zhong Yang Guo Shu Guan. The original name of the form had same sound, but meant roaring tiger swallow.

For HK7* I believe you are thinking of Fei Yen Zhang-flying sparrow(or goose?) palm. No relation.

Romance of the Three Kingdoms.
I'm still looking for Yen Ching in the Water Margin book. I'm now past the 1000 page mark, hope to find him soon.
In Romance.. They say if so and so gets so and so it would be like adding wings to a tiger. Sorry that is all I can remember.

Su Yu Zhang's student published a book with this form. Apparantly Wang Lang said this quote when referring to the techniques in this form(unlikely). Although it is possible the creator of the form did think of the quote. One of those things we can only speculate on. But the form is one of the nicest taught by Wang Song Ting.

[flem]

tainan

don't know alot about history, atleast not compared to you but the tiger with wings philosophy has also been used in tai chi- referring to learning chi kung along with the other sets

[Tainan Mantis]

Flem,
I didn't know that.
These Tiger swallow forms actually look like a kind of tiger style with many jumps like a flying sparrow.

[Joe Mantis]

Tainan Mantis

It makes sense now. Excellent example of TSD and Taiji.
thanks.



Hua Lin:

I agree with different schools teaching having their own idea of advanced and basic sets. What is taught earlier at one school may be taught later at another. It is neither right nor wrong of course, rather I believe a matter of emphasis on what the teacher wants the students to learn.
you mentioned that a lot of students know Lan Jeet. I'm interested to know if that is what it's called in WL or is it known by a different name? I've seen other styles do this with forms. ie: Southern Crane set one style calls it Crane another Sil Lum 6. Of course Big Mantis - Beng Bu, or Outer Tiger - Tiger Crane (hung ga).
thanks.

[Joe Mantis]

Flem:

16 hands- the two scoops then chow choy, move to bean choy.

I've been told that the scoop is for an opponents leg. Then the chow choy is to the groin.
Is this what you were taught.

You were right in saying that it seems that you were giving out a lot of apps. the reason I don't is because I wasn't taught many at all. AND the ones I did were veryt simplistic and I believe unrealistic. So I'm sharing out of ignorance.
Thanks for your understanding.