3 things

[shaolinboxer]

I just don't see the wisdom in taking advice from someone who isolated him/herself for 39 years. How could their discoveries be relavent to the life of relationships I lead (even if they are true, they have the wrong foundation)?

They are probably in need of therapy, rather than enlightenment.

[dwid]

I too have met people in my life who had such an energy about them that when they spoke simple words it was like hearing those words for the first time. Somehow repeating the words to others ends up disheartening more often than not, because of the diminished impact of the person not directly experiencing the original speaker. My comment had to do with the text and not the message, I suppose, and I apologize for p!ssing on your parade.

39 years is a long time to live in isolation. Do you think it a worthwhile pursuit to spend that much time essentially preparing yourself for living? This is not an attack, I'm really curious about what all the seekers on this thread feel about this.

Being involved to a degree in Zen Buddhism, myself, I see the value in taking time away from the chaos of the world to find your peace, but removing yourself entirely seems somewhat hollow to me. It's easy practicing non-attachment and all that when you're living in a vacuum.

I look forward to anyone else's thoughts on this.

[Justa Man]

If you see a buddah in the road kill it

I first read this years ago in a Lone Wolf and Cub comic and couldn't understand it's meaning. I still don't understand it now, eventhough I've pondered it often. Can anyone help me with this?

I don't think 39 years is a long time preparing oneself to live, because they are living their life the entire time. It's just the ends they wish to reach that keeps them in isolation for however long until they reach that end.

[TjD]

i dont think his goals were to prepare him to live his life

rather enlightenment; thats not only about living this life free from suffering


peace
travis

[dwid]

I guess I'm coming at it from a Mahayana perspective, I don't understand the value of enlightenment unto itself. If you aren't intending to come back to the world and help others along, again, it seems somewhat hollow to me.

Also, if his intent in going into isolation was to achieve enlightenment, isn't that the surest way not to achieve it. I've encountered the idea in a number of sources that one should not focus on becoming enlightened. That is not living in the moment, it is living in the future. I find it interesting that both of you indicated that he went into isolation with his eyes on a particular prize. And yet his own words quoted by Earth Dragon say that you have to live in the now.

Furthermore, I've got to admit that I don't believe in enlightenment as an end-state. There is enlightened action, but I don't think there are enlightened beings. Change is constant, so how can enlightenment be permanent? Using this criteria, it is difficult to gauge enlightenment when you're completely isolated.

[TjD]

there are many different ways to go about enlightenment

but the buddha himself on MANY occasions advocated the solitary life so it cant be all bad

a main reason (as i see it) for going into seclusion for attaining enlightenment is that while living alone, it removes many, many, many distractions from everyday life - which is extremely conducive to improving ones power of concentration

this leads the the 4 jhana states, the realm of infinite space, infinite conciousness, nothingness, and cessation of feeling and perception (which is closely tied with arahantship)

once concentration has been mastered, its easy to weild that incredible power towards figuring everything out and attaining enlightenment

the buddha himself mastered his own concentration by attaining the 4 jhanas and the 4 formless concentrations, then proceeded to remember all his past lives, then concieving of and understanding the 4 nobles truths; which led to his enlightenment

this path is extremely simple, two steps concentration, then insight

however, the buddha did also say that no matter how you live your life, if you dont have right intention/effort, etc.. you wont become enlightened so living alone for 39 years could either be a waste, or the best 39 years of your life


there are many ways to achieve enlightenment; the buddha taught many different ways for many different people

peace
travis

[dwid]

If not, I'm sorry, but that's the most ridiculous description of enlightenment I've ever heard. The term "enlightenment" has nothing to do with light in the sense of illumination, but rather "lighten," as in to remove a heavy load.

TjD

I wasn't speaking against isolation in general, but rather was questioning the value of such prolonged isolation. I realize that in many Eastern traditions, being a hermit is respected, and I respect it provided it comes from the right motivation. As you say in your post, without right intention, all is for naught.

[Nexus]

Trying to give descriptions to enlightenment will not bring any of you any closer to understanding it. Rather, you will gain by letting go of descriptions of enlightenment. Only you can create enlightenment for yourself, nobody can hold your hand and take you to it. It is a journey that must be walked alone. Things are relative and your experiences based on perspective, both relativity and perspective will change, and you will form a reality and realize that you are the one who formed it.

[EARTH DRAGON]

I totally agree with nexus it is something that only you can expericence though I know none of us will ever even come lose not just becuse we speak of it in a chat room on the internet but becuse it takes lots of money.... just kidding

dwid actually I enjoyd guohen explianation of enlightenment and cannot be put into simple terms like lighter as in less weight as you said for that weight just might be the body, bones, flesh teeth etc, but you cannot begin to tell someone that thats not what it means if you havent reached it yourself!!!!! or have you ? so how dso you know what it is?????

not for nothing but you quoted oomay goo korean bua gua story which is full of crap and couldnt be ****her from the truth so I would be careful what you say wearing that sign around your name....................

[TjD]

i agree talking ABOUT enlightenment is useless... you'll never know til you get there and creating perceptions about it hinder your path there


however, talking about how to REACH enlightenment is definately worthwhile - if the buddha never talked about it... no one else ever would have gotten there (well mabye not - but definately not as many as have gotten there)


dwid:
sweet! i made someones sig you the man

peace
travis

[dwid]

Given the fact that I practice Bagua, the quote is intended as a joke. I can't imagine anyone could possibly take it seriously, so frankly I'm not worried about being careful what I say using that signature. There, I changed the sig, so even people trying to give me a hard time can't possible misinterpret it.

Regarding enlightenment, I agree that it is not necessarily something I'm capable of understanding right now, but just because I haven't realized it, and don't know what it is, doesn't preclude me from knowing what it isn't. The two do not logically follow from one another. Much of Buddhist writing is built around the premise of describing what things are not in lieu of describing what they are. Anyway, I know enlightenment isn't sitting at a dirty rest-stop toilet with explosive diarrhea. At least I'm pretty sure, anyway. Likewise, guohan's matter of fact description of enlightenment in such terms struck me as funny.

[EARTH DRAGON]

No problem, I was hoping that the signautre was a joke but you never know on these boards someone posted that thread and called it the real truth about ba gua so agin you never know sorry but some people may not know your kidding!!!! take care E.D

[dwid]

I took it from the link from that thread. Some of the most ridiculous stuff I've ever read. Oom people are scary.

Thanks, Dwid

[Eight_Triagram_Boxer]

Just to answer your question concerning the advice,
"If you see Buddha on the side of the road, kill him"

What's meant by this, from my understanding, is that if you are meditating or doing sme sort of awareness work and you have a vision of Buddha, or any other holy person or deity for that matter, it means you are not being aware or you are following mental images instead of being aware of here and now. I suppose it also applies to your normal life as well but if anyone were to see Buddha just doing ordinary things I think they'd need some psychological help.
Hope this gives you some insight.

[Kristoffer]

this thread is great! Thank you for sharing this